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Figuring out rated range.

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by No2DinosaurFuel, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. No2DinosaurFuel

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    ok this should be mostly tailored to US model s.

    I just want to get some numbers to see if everything is matching.

    Here is what I know for sure.
    90D EPA range: 294 miles
    75D EPA range: 259 miles
    70D EPA range: 240 miles
    60D EPA range: 218 miles

    After a few cycles and few thousand miles the rated ranges should settle to something lower. This is typical of lithium batteries.

    90D after settling: 286 miles
    75D after settling: ??? miles
    70D after settling: ??? miles
    60D after settling: ??? miles

    Anyone care to give their numbers? Thanks ahead of time.
     
  2. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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  3. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Your 90% at any given time will fluctuate. Flasherz showed a good graph of his 90% SOC compared to the outdoor seasonal temperature variation, and it goes up and down with the outdoors weather. So your 90% in the summer might be a few miles higher than your 90% in the winter.

    Also, your 90% will be affect by your odometer (more miles = lower 90%)


    So I'm not really sure what you're trying to show or compare. There are too many variables. You may want to give more details to get a more meaningful answer.
     
  4. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    If that was directed at me the 80-90-100% numbers are directly proportional to each other due to the math. A 100% SOC of 286 will be 257 at 90% and so on. If it's not, it's time to recalibrate/balance the pack.
    BTW, the @FlasherZ data never applied to me here on the West Coast or people in other temperate climates where the temperature variation isn't as great as Missouri or Virginia where FlasherZ and you live. Summer and Winter SOC is the same for me. Agree that normal degradation impacts SOC.
     
  5. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Nope, sorry, that was directed at the OP.
    Mine might have been as drastic as Flasherz, and I did zero scientific experimentation. But in the winter (car was about 1/2 year old) my SOC at 100% on my 70D went to about 230 miles. Next summer (car was 1 year old at the time) my SOC at 100% went back to 235-236 miles (not 240 when it was new, but "a lot" more than 230 it was 1/2 a year ago ;)).

    My 90% did fluctuate too, but I can't remember how low/high it went.

    I also put on 24k miles in that first year. So my degradation was reasonable 2% in 24k miles and 1 year.
     
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  6. No2DinosaurFuel

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    This is only for the D cars. Also this is really for the new battery packs. I don't want to muck up the data with older packs though we can definitely look at those once I get these data to compare.

    Also this is really asking 100%, though people can interpolate the 100% using either their 80% or 90% charge.

    Keep those numbers coming.
     
  7. No2DinosaurFuel

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    Well I know it fluctuates hence why I am asking a group. I just want to know what the settling rated miles is. The EPA numbers are only when the car is brand new and we only enjoy that number for a brief few months. After that is drops.

    A few thread before had said the drop the first year is about 3%. So my 90D is already at or close to that 3%. I just want to make sure it is similar across the board or if tesla is cutting corners on the 90D packs.

    Going on the 3% numbers:

    My guess are the following:

    90D: 286 miles
    75D: 252 miles
    70D: 233 miles
    60D: 218 miles *****

    I believe the 60D will always have the 60KWh because it is really a 75D and it is probably simpiler for tesla just to keep it that way or try to be fancy and try to factor in degradation into their batteries.
     
  8. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    That link is the goto site for range data. Suggest people post there instead so it doesn't get lost in the noise.
    Incidentally, very few people charge to 100% except for a trip so data is sparse. There's also 3 different 90D pack versions each with a different EPA Rated Range.
     
  9. suraj1194

    suraj1194 Member

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    5K miles in, I still get 259 miles at 100%
     
  10. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    S 70 (RWD)
    90% = 217 rated miles (Was 218 miles brand new)
    Full charge = 241 rated miles
    8700+ miles on odometer
     
  11. No2DinosaurFuel

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    I am not sure if they are different internally. There is also no 3 different EPA, 2 at most. And the reason for the difference in the EPA is tesla didn't have the new 90KWh pack reevaluated with the EPA so they were using the 85D numbers. They were all 90KWh.

    If I remember correctly, it was 270 miles combined for the 85D. The 2015 90D also had the 270 miles even though people were getting more than 270 miles because the 270 miles was for the 85D. In 2016, Tesla did the proper EPA test and changed it to 294. The 286 seems to be what they all put on CPO/inventory cars even the new ones.

    I think the 286 miles is the settling range. But funny how tesla puts 286 here, but then put the EPA 259 for the 75D and 218 for the 60D also on the CPO/inventory sites.

    My point is something is not right in terms of the posted range.
     
  12. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    Yes, 3 different MS 90D versions 3 different battery part numbers. Trust me. There's an entire thread on what you call "settling" called something like "90D rated range slowly declining". Original 90D was 270 (85D) plus 6% or 287. V2 and V3 both have RR @ 294. There's info on thread on what we did to a) report it and b) fix it.
     
  13. No2DinosaurFuel

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    Where is the info thread? I have looked at the 90D slowing declining thread and I did not find much other than people saying their range is declining. Not much on what the 3 versions are and what each is expected to put out.

    Thanks
     
  14. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    #14 msnow, Oct 6, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
    It's a long thread but there are screenshots from various owners of the 3 battery part number labels. v1 is the original (July - ~December 2015) RR=286, v2 started appearing Jan/Feb 2016 to April 2016 RR=294, v3 part number has verbiage on the part label "Only for cars built after 4/16/2016" (not 100% sure what the date was on there but it coincided with when the refresh was released). V3 also had a RR of 294 but the speculation is that the reason that battery could only be used in the 4/2016 refresh is because of a wiring harness change. It's possible v3 has more power like it's sister v3 P90DL has over the v2 P90DL but again I haven't seen PowerTools data to support that.
    What you probably need to do on your own car, if you haven't already, is to run it down to 10-20 miles then do a full 100% charge to calibrate and rebalance your pack. I think you will regain a couple miles by doing that.
     
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  15. No2DinosaurFuel

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    Thanks. I was able to find the pack. Seems like I have the newer pack than the one posted but have yet to see anything above 260 miles at 90% charge. I will have to fully charge and do some road test to bring it down to less than 20 miles to find out. I am a bit relieved that I got the newer packs. Again my build was around March/April time frame.
     
  16. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    Very nice!
     
  17. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    Edit: just wanted remind you that the battery balancing/recalibration is best done by running it down first and then doing a full charge. You sound like you were going to start with a 100% charge and run it down which is okay as long as you finish with a full charge. The 100% charge is what triggers the BMS (Battery Management System) to see and calibrate your cells. Sometimes the calibration takes days. Personal I let it run down slowly over a week until it gets to 10-20 not on one long drive.
     
  18. tnt1971

    tnt1971 Member

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    I have an 85D currently at 9,000 miles. I have done one range charge at about 7k and got 275. All my charges work out percentage wise to 275 miles at full range (50%=138, 70%=193, etc.) My range increased shortly after I got the car when they did the refresh model. I think I got a small benefit (5 miles) in a software update right around that time. People talk about out of balance packs but I have not seen it. Either it is a myth, or the newer cars are not affected by it.

    My only caveat is that the car has not yet seen temperatures below freezing. It has seen the rest of the spectrum, including a very hot summer.
     
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  19. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    One interesting high mileage example is the Tesloop S85D which had 200,000 miles in one year and was range charged to 100% daily. After a year, battery had lost only 6% of its capacity.
     
  20. No2DinosaurFuel

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    I wouldn't read into too much about the hype. Keep in mind how they were using the battery pack. It was driven daily and charged to 100% daily. This means they were not at 100% for long each day. Also since their service is regular they might be scheduling it such that they just finished 100% charging once their service start. Again nothing wrong with 100% just as long as you use it right away. I think it is more of a way to promote tesla as well as tesla and tesloop.

    Point is I would not trust the hype and apply it normally used tesla cars. It is possible You will have more than 6% degradation after 200K miles.
     

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