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Firmware 7.0 Beta Discussion

Lloyd

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jan 12, 2011
6,335
2,202
San Luis Obispo, CA
But, I complained of my 3G data "freezing" I could free it with a reboot. Happens about once a week. I left it frozen for a ranger visit so they could see it. This was their answer.
 

Bet TSLA

Active Member
Dec 8, 2014
2,882
11,769
Cupertino, CA
I do not agree with your assessment that Tesla is writing off the concerns and needs of its current customers to attract customers for a car that hasn't been built yet.

Perhaps you'll agree that Tesla is "skating to where the puck is going to be" as a more palatable way of phrasing it. But maybe not. Nevertheless, that's what successful high tech gadget companies do. If that mode doesn't suit you, it's probably not a good idea to own high tech gadgets. They are obsolete the day you buy them. Support for old hardware is always sketchy. If it isn't dubious today, it will be tomorrow.

Me, I'm waiting for Elon to make good on revolutionizing the service side of the business. I want to know what his promised "invisible love" (now many months overdue) is going to be like. Maybe he'll figure out a way to make it all good when you own a Tesla vehicle. But if he can reconcile continuous improvement and avoiding obsolescence he's even more of a genius than I give him credit for.
 

alin3

Member
Apr 27, 2015
52
4
Chicago, IL
That particular post is laughable to me. The imagery in the dashboard IC is enough to make you get rid of a Tesla? NEVER should have purchased one then.

Umm, I completely agree with you. :)

I was responding to a poster that was considering trading in his Model S for a BMW if the 7.0 firmware looked like what was posted in this thread. An incredible reaction if you ask me.
 

perkiset

... this one goes to 11
Jan 7, 2014
238
0
Phoenix, AZ
Umm, I completely agree with you. :)

I was responding to a poster that was considering trading in his Model S for a BMW if the 7.0 firmware looked like what was posted in this thread. An incredible reaction if you ask me.
Totally got that, sorry if you thought it was pointed at you. I was agreeably pointing with you at the other post :)

- - - Updated - - -

Given everything that's been opined in this thread, I sincerely hope that Tesla simply offers us a "Classic" or "New" option to switch between the different interfaces. Hopefully (!) their code is modular enough to allow multiple interfaces on top of the real code that does the hard work.
Although I understand the sentiment this is actually a pretty bad idea.

The problem is that everyone will be more in love with their muscle memory and where things are, than letting Tesla evolve and get better. Apple is a perfect example. Although they definitely have their missteps. overall, the trajectory of OS UI development has been positive and for the good - taking into account different technology, different users and new requirements. Tesla must continue to evolve and get closer to a target that is, currently, unavailable anywhere in the mass-market world. They are shooting for New, which is the most difficult thing of all. And combine that with "Easy" which is extraorinarily hard - at least from a fundamental design standpoint.

We are, like it or not, the mass beta test group of the grand experiment called Tesla. It is not only fair, it's somewhat of an obligation to give them solid feedback on things we like and don't like. Nothing saying they have to do we suggest, but if they're smart they'll at least listen and take it in. My experience with development teams like this is that they will. V7 will be a strong step forward. And there will be awkward WTFs in the UI, as there are in virtually every system I've touched since about 1973 (in fairness, UI was not even considered when I first started touching computers, unless you mean the door and the buttons on card reader LOL)
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,775
2,361
Santa Cruz, CA
We can debate about what constitutes "core" functionality, but an animated picture of the car you're driving clearly isn't on that list. Getting rid of time and temp for that is just silly.

Getting rid of a redundantly displayed second time and temperature to be able to see when my brake lights go on seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me. The movement of the power meter is a greater concern. Having the date on the driver console seems stupid to me, I can bring up the calendar app if I for some reason really need to know the date while driving. Speaking of wasted space, currently I think having the redundant digital and analog speed display and redundant digital and large graphic representation of the remaining energy seems like a waste of space. Personally I would be happy if they got rid of the old fashioned speedometer and just had a power meter and digital speed readout.
 

SomeJoe7777

Marginally-Known Member
Mar 28, 2015
2,196
5,790
Houston, TX
I've apparently ruffled some feathers around here with my opinions. :smile: So be it, I was never someone known for holding back. So let me approach my feelings on this interface from a different perspective. (Again, all this with the caveat that we're talking about an unreleased, beta, not-final product that may not amount to anything when it comes to general release).

Is there something I'm missing or "not getting" about this new interface? If you're a person who likes it, or believes it's more advanced than what we have, or that it helps the driver more, then great. Please explain to me why you feel that way. What is it that you see in this interface that I'm not seeing? Tell me how this is better for the driver. Not for future potential owners, but for the driver sitting in front of it that has to interact with it.

Because I'm not seeing it. To drive, I need information. If I compare the information I get now from 6.2 with the information that I (apparently) can get from 7.0, it sure does seem like I'm missing a lot. Am I wrong? Does it matter? Help me out here.
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,775
2,361
Santa Cruz, CA
I've apparently ruffled some feathers around here with my opinions. :smile: So be it, I was never someone known for holding back. So let me approach my feelings on this interface from a different perspective. (Again, all this with the caveat that we're talking about an unreleased, beta, not-final product that may not amount to anything when it comes to general release).

Is there something I'm missing or "not getting" about this new interface? If you're a person who likes it, or believes it's more advanced than what we have, or that it helps the driver more, then great. Please explain to me why you feel that way. What is it that you see in this interface that I'm not seeing? Tell me how this is better for the driver. Not for future potential owners, but for the driver sitting in front of it that has to interact with it.

Because I'm not seeing it. To drive, I need information. If I compare the information I get now from 6.2 with the information that I (apparently) can get from 7.0, it sure does seem like I'm missing a lot. Am I wrong? Does it matter? Help me out here.

I don't know I necessarily like it. I suppose for me it seems like a lot of angst over a display. I like using the power meter, and might find the new interface annoying, but the car will still drive the same, and that's why I bought it. I just can't get myself so worked up over these details like whether I have to look at the center console or in front of me to see the time. Discussion of why the interface might be better or worse is fine, it's just the extreme phrasing of the opinions that seems over the top to me (less tick marks and a new location for the energy meter somehow now makes it "completely worthless").
 

tinm

2020 Model S LR+ Owner
May 3, 2015
2,463
12,326
New Mexico, USA
There have been comments in this thread questioning the credentials of so many owners' UI assessments and opinions. For the record, my academic background is cognitive science and I've been doing UI design, UX, info architecture, user experience, usability testing, etc., for many years including at several major consumer dot-coms where I managed teams of UI, front-end dev, and usability people, and worked closely with product managers etc.

In my opinion, what I've seen of the purported leaks of 7.0 screens makes me have great discomfort and concern. I agree with others that the big picture of the car in the center of the instrument cluster screen is wasteful. For thousands of owners who don't own parking sensors let alone autopilot functionality, it's REALLY wasteful. The light around the front of the little car image is distracting and overprioritized in terms of the relative importance of other information and status indicators on the display. Hell, look out the frickin' window and notice your headlights are on. And look at the little green and/or blue low-beam/hi-beam icons that have worked for decades in autos worldwide.

I love Tesla pushing the design envelope, but as I have said before, for car designs, it boils down to driver success at accomplishing tasks. Whatever is big and bright on the screen relative to other things on the screen better damn well have a valid reason for being big and bright.

The designers at Tesla have perhaps gotten a bit too enthusiastic for their (and drivers') own good.

One thing I have feared since day one owning this car, is that Tesla would follow the Apple pattern of software updates that eventually dismay and frustrate longtime users by veering too far from what has become comfortable and understandable. iOS and MacOS X have suffered from this problem over the past 5 years. I figure Tesla is going down this path and it's unfortunate. From Tesla's perspective, their biggest and best days are still off in the future, and us early adopters are, hour by hour, becoming a smaller and smaller percentage of the overall market. At some point our concerns and observations become edge cases; we become the loony fringe of the user population while the company keeps its eye on the prize, that being the million new customers per year.

'Twas ever thus.
 

tinm

2020 Model S LR+ Owner
May 3, 2015
2,463
12,326
New Mexico, USA
A lot of this thread seems like a proxy war against Apple.

It might seem that way but at least for my posts that bring up Apple, it's not intended to be. I use Macs, iPads, iPhones, AppleTV, every day for work and home enjoyment.

The issues that Apple users have faced over the past 10 years are similar to what's now happening with Tesla, is my main point. So I find it a useful example to draw from, hoping Tesla learns from the Apple issues that have disappointed or made cynical many an Apple customer.
 

Stoneymonster

Active Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,787
1,085
Aptos, Ca
It might seem that way but at least for my posts that bring up Apple, it's not intended to be. I use Macs, iPads, iPhones, AppleTV, every day for work and home enjoyment.

The issues that Apple users have faced over the past 10 years are similar to what's now happening with Tesla, is my main point. So I find it a useful example to draw from, hoping Tesla learns from the Apple issues that have disappointed or made cynical many an Apple customer.

That's certainly fair. But there is a bit of an apples to oranges (hmmm) comparison. The primary job of a car is to be driven, mostly while looking out the windows/mirrors. The primary job of an Apple device is to be used as computing device, and thus its primary connection with the user is the UI. The importance of the UI on a vehicle *should* be far far less than that on a computing device. Some would argue, and have here on this thread, that a simpler, less distracting UI is actually desirable. That may not be the case for other devices.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with criticism of the UI changes. I have a problem with the vehemence of some of them. I've said it before, if one thinks Tesla's software team and management are incompetent, then one shouldn't trust Tesla vehicles with their safety. That's different than saying they may not have design tastes that match one's sensibilities.
 

SomeJoe7777

Marginally-Known Member
Mar 28, 2015
2,196
5,790
Houston, TX
Anyway, I don't have a problem with criticism of the UI changes. I have a problem with the vehemence of some of them. I've said it before, if one thinks Tesla's software team and management are incompetent, then one shouldn't trust Tesla vehicles with their safety. That's different than saying they may not have design tastes that match one's sensibilities.

Fair enough, opinions can sometimes be over the top, strongly worded, and embellished beyond their intended accuracy. Maybe I've done so.

But I can't help but play "what if" with what I'm seeing. As an example, if I can't infer my rate of change of speed from an analog speedometer, to me that might actually decrease my own safety in some situations. That's kind of why I have a problem with some of these changes, and I wonder how Tesla addressed these possibilities.
 

perkiset

... this one goes to 11
Jan 7, 2014
238
0
Phoenix, AZ
There have been comments in this thread questioning the credentials of so many owners' UI assessments and opinions. For the record, my academic background is cognitive science and I've been doing UI design, UX, info architecture, user experience, usability testing, etc., for many years including at several major consumer dot-coms where I managed teams of UI, front-end dev, and usability people, and worked closely with product managers etc.
Heh. Then you of all people should understand that, until we are presented with the final incarnation of their research and work, this is all just gnashing of teeth and screaming at the wind.

I don't have any concern at all, because there are no facts, at all. Every bit of this is conjecture. Once the real V7 hits the streets, there will certainly be feedback to Tesla about what pisses people off. And some of it will be valid and meaningful, and probably a subset of that plus a couple other things will be tightened up in their maintenance releases.

<edit: minor typo>
 

tezzla

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jul 14, 2013
652
324
SoCal
This nails it on the head. I find the reaction on this thread to the updated UI to be laughable.

I trust the decisions that Tesla is making with respect to this UI. My understanding is that the car in the middle is an important way of giving feedback of the automobile beyond what is currently available. I'm very much looking forward to the UI and I think it's awesome.

Same as me, I love change! and I think Tesla will get it right.

The funniest thing is people complaining about the clock; it's a NEW SELECTABLE component, if you don't like it, don't use it. Now to important stuff: WHERE'S MY AUTOPILOT! :)
 

perkiset

... this one goes to 11
Jan 7, 2014
238
0
Phoenix, AZ
... I don't have a problem with criticism of the UI changes. I have a problem with the vehemence of some of them. I've said it before, if one thinks Tesla's software team and management are incompetent, then one shouldn't trust Tesla vehicles with their safety.
Boom. Drop the mike and walk.
 

chickensevil

Active Member
Jan 2, 2014
4,139
263
Virginia, United States
I haven't enough bandwidth to read all the posts in this thread, so just one perspective:

Research upon research has incontrovertibly demonstrated* the analog clock face IS FAR MORE READILY understood by human brains - particularly when occupied by other tasks (like paying attention to the road) - than is a digital clock. I find that clock the most appealing part of the new rollout.


*on request. Or google it, any skeptics.

I'm going to have to put in a request for your sources on this one, because I tried Googling (and maybe I'm not picking the right keywords) and all I ce up with was two articles, one was a lifestyle type blog (with no sources) and the other was a "executive tips" blog series where the "source" was "some academic I heard on NPR in the 80s".

I guess my issue with this is that I have gotten so away from analog that it actually takes me longer to figure out the time. I would think that it would also depend on how your brain was wired (left brain / right brain) type notion as well. Anyway, if you have a source, I love reading up on these types of things!

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I'm not a programmer but regardless..... Tesla is telling the Techs to delete the trip meters if they are over 2000 miles. Mine were reset to zero without my permission.

Yikes! If I take my car in for service again any time soon I'm going to make it a point to tell them under no circumstance should they reset the meter without calling me first. Because I would be very displeased to have my faithful trip B disappear on me. At the very least let me write down the data first so I can manually continue to average together lifetime usage.
 

ohmman

Plaid-ish Moderator
Feb 13, 2014
10,194
18,709
North Bay, CA
I'm going to have to put in a request for your sources on this one, because I tried Googling (and maybe I'm not picking the right keywords) and all I ce up with was two articles, one was a lifestyle type blog (with no sources) and the other was a "executive tips" blog series where the "source" was "some academic I heard on NPR in the 80s".

I guess my issue with this is that I have gotten so away from analog that it actually takes me longer to figure out the time. I would think that it would also depend on how your brain was wired (left brain / right brain) type notion as well. Anyway, if you have a source, I love reading up on these types of things!


+1, I'd like to get some decent material on this. I have an ADHD child (as an aside, he's non-hyperactive, which you'd think makes him ADD, but that term has been retired, so the classification is ADHD-PI or primarily inattentive). One of the tips we received from the doctor was to use an analog clock because it creates a visual representation of time. They sell timers that, instead of just being a countdown, show a pie chart that shrinks - this has been helpful at times. However, this is anecdotal and I'd love to read something peer-reviewed.

Also need to point out that right brain/left brain is just a myth.. plenty to Google on that. :wink:
 

chickensevil

Active Member
Jan 2, 2014
4,139
263
Virginia, United States
+1, I'd like to get some decent material on this. I have an ADHD child (as an aside, he's non-hyperactive, which you'd think makes him ADD, but that term has been retired, so the classification is ADHD-PI or primarily inattentive). One of the tips we received from the doctor was to use an analog clock because it creates a visual representation of time. They sell timers that, instead of just being a countdown, show a pie chart that shrinks - this has been helpful at times. However, this is anecdotal and I'd love to read something peer-reviewed.

Also need to point out that right brain/left brain is just a myth.. plenty to Google on that. :wink:

Sorry that was an over simplification of what I was trying to get at. It is far more complex that left/right of course.

As for shrinking pie charts or other things like that I can totally get that those would be helpful for keep track of a specific task or goal. I would wager that a digital could be just as effective... Depending... Since the issue there seems to be lack of time awareness. The reason a pie miht be better for a child over a number is that there is certainly some amount of math behind understanding the numbers whereas the pie you dont necessarily need the numbers attached. But when you need to relate analog back to a hard number, say 12:00 you are now back to thinking mathematically again and therefore I'm not understanding what you are saving with analog...
 

HankLloydRight

No Roads
Supporting Member
Jan 18, 2014
13,069
11,318
Connecticut


AudubonB said:
Research upon research has incontrovertibly demonstrated* the analog clock face IS FAR MORE READILY understood by human brains - particularly when occupied by other tasks (like paying attention to the road) - than is a digital clock. I find that clock the most appealing part of the new rollout.

Ok, this might be true, but it's apple/oranges here. First of all, the digital clock is very small and unobtrusive in the status area of the current firmware. If you were to replace that small digital clock with an analog clock, your research may apply, but frankly in a space that small, an analog clock might not be that clear when rendered.

And secondly, we're talking about a freaking HUGE clock taking up an entire side panel (only one of TWO available) displacing other critical information I would like to see while driving. I don't need a HUGE FREAKING BLAND ANALOG CLOCK in that space, I need ACTIONABLE data. Again, if we're talking about either a digital clock or analog clock taking up the entire space of that side panel, then yes, hands down analog is a better choice. But the issue is what is that displacing??




- - - Updated - - -

HankLloydRight said:
I sincerely hope that Tesla simply offers us a "Classic" or "New" option to switch between the different interfaces.

This is equivalent to the statement "I sincerely hope that Tesla doubles the workload of its software testers. Let's make sure that new releases come much more slowly and have more bugs. And while we're at it, let's make sure the developers have lots more work too, backporting new features to the old interface. That should slow things down even more."

Nice job -- you have conveniently edited out my very next statement, which says exactly the opposite of all that:
HankLloydRight said:
Hopefully (!) their code is modular enough to allow multiple interfaces on top of the real code that does the hard work

If they did it right, it should be easy and possible to layer *ANY* interface on top of the stack, without any re-work or back-porting at all. I'm hoping that's actually the route they took. We shall see.

Do you still think it's a good idea?

Yes, I do.
 

anxman

Member
Dec 21, 2014
362
59
san francisco, ca
I might be assuming this incorrectly, but that clock is just one of many widgets that you can put into that spot. Its functionality is no different than today's setup.






Ok, this might be true, but it's apple/oranges here. First of all, the digital clock is very small and unobtrusive in the status area of the current firmware. If you were to replace that small digital clock with an analog clock, your research may apply, but frankly in a space that small, an analog clock might not be that clear when rendered.

And secondly, we're talking about a freaking HUGE clock taking up an entire side panel (only one of TWO available) displacing other critical information I would like to see while driving. I don't need a HUGE FREAKING BLAND ANALOG CLOCK in that space, I need ACTIONABLE data. Again, if we're talking about either a digital clock or analog clock taking up the entire space of that side panel, then yes, hands down analog is a better choice. But the issue is what is that displacing??




- - - Updated - - -



Nice job -- you have conveniently edited out my very next statement, which says exactly the opposite of all that:

If they did it right, it should be easy and possible to layer *ANY* interface on top of the stack, without any re-work or back-porting at all. I'm hoping that's actually the route they took. We shall see.



Yes, I do.
 

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