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sillydriver
Member
There has been a lot of speculation and inconsistent evidence whether the rule is three beeps and you're out, or three beeps and you're out if you ignore the beeps. I lean toward the first, which is the bad outcome. I suspect this can only be settled two ways: 1) extracting a definite statement from Elon or senior management, or (much more likely) 2) installing 8.0 when available and letting it beep three times.
Remember there are varying levels of beeps. It gets more insistent after the first round. So it's possible that if you respond to the first audible alarm before it gets really angry, that counts as "not ignored". I guess we'll see.
jgs
Active Member
Gee, until I read your comment (I haven't been tracking this thread) it didn't even occur to me that there was any ambiguity in the blog statement. I just went back and reread it and AFAICT the plain English of it says your option 2 ("will not allow reengagement of Autosteer until parked if user ignores repeated warnings", there's the "if you ignore the beeps" part).
But the proof of the pudding will be, as you say, in the eating.
Hans Noordsij
Well-Known Member
zou er ook iets voor de Classics in zitten ?
Natuurlijk, navigatie, SuC info, UI, app etc.
Wait a sec while I climb into my flame resistant suit.....ooookkkk, good. I guess I'm a bit confused about the fuss here. The updated version of autopilot seems only to make the system more responsive, useful and robust. What's not to like about that? [pause......]. On the subject of the nags, Tesla has always made it quite clear that you need to keep your hands on the wheel. All the time. Not your knees, not a finger, not for purposes of the occasional tug, all the time. Now I certainly agree it would be nice, even very nice, if that weren't required (not required in the sense of will it work just fine without it, but required in the sense that the manufacturer says it is required in order to use the function), and I won't say that I've never used a light touch where autosteer is in play, but I guess I don't understand about complaints about getting nagged for not doing what Tesla says you have to do when using it. Sure, lawyers are involved, the NHTSA is involved, etc... but if you use it as you are intended to do, then you shouldn't get nagged. Complaining that it should only bother you when it really needs input is the argument for a different level of autonomy, which Tesla doesn't claim to be providing. Moniker's aside, this is a driver's assistance function that requires your constant attention at this stage of its development....legally, operationally, etc... I get that some vehicles seem to sense your feedback at different levels (my car is one week old and it requires very little touch), and that can drive too many nags and that is a valid complaint. And freedom from Da Man is certainly a valid attitude, But I don't understand the complaint about the car reminding you what you are supposed to be doing because you are literally not doing it. Yes, I'm sure you are paying attention. Yes, I'm sure your super-human reflexes will allow you to safely avoid any obstacle even while your hands rest on your legs, yes I'm sure you are the best knee driver in the world. All good. Except if you don't have your hands on the wheel as required you will get reminded you have to do so. Don't know why this all bothers me so much, but it seems like if I bought a dive watch that says it is good to 5 meters for 15 minutes and I take it to 25 meters for 35 minutes and it breaks, I can't say "but it says it is a dive watch and I should be able to dive with it and not have to listen to those silly restrictions." Ok. Closing the face seal on the flame suit.
and yes, I'm responding to various comments on the way too many threads on this topic, not something that is particular to this thread. Apologies!
and yes, I'm responding to various comments on the way too many threads on this topic, not something that is particular to this thread. Apologies!
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Notwithstanding my post above, I actually tried to get it to nag me when I drove the car 35 miles to a Texans game in a variety of situations. Never let it get past the visual warning except once when I wanted to see what happened and how long it took. Otherwise I try to be a good boy.....
But it sounds like it will nag every minute at more than 45 MPH regardless of conditions. Now maybe that nag is just a warning flashing on the screen, and not an audible warning, but I don't think we will actually know how it works until someone gets it and tests it out.
I personally can't see giving up the huge safety advances by staying on 7.1 just to be able to ignore more warnings.
...if you aren't holding the wheel. So if it detects you holding the wheel, reset the timer. Then it detects again, reset the timer. So no, we won't be getting 60 nags an hour regardless of hands-on-wheel.
sillydriver
Member
Okay, so just to lay out what the other side of the argument is, Electrek's transcript of Elon's presentation has him saying:
"Autopilot accidents are far more likely for expert users. It is not the neophytes. It’s the experts. ... They get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car’s warnings. It’s like a reflex. The car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, and it becomes an unconscious reflex action. So we will see half a dozen or more, sometimes as many as 10 warnings in one hour continuously ignored by the driver. We really want to avoid that situation."
So if they really want to avoid the situation of "beep and tug the wheel," it won't be accomplished by allowing people to get away with simply tugging after the beeps. That's exactly what he just said they want to stop. And he equates "the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel" with "So we will see ... as many as 10 warnings in one hour continuously ignored by the driver." In other words, he clearly considers tugging followed by not continuing to leave one's hands on the wheel, which would result in no further beeps, to be an "ignore." So I fear that three tugs followed by removing one's hands from the wheel after each tug, which will lead to more beeps, is considered to be an ignore. Three such ignores and you're out. Three beeps and you're out.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think his statement makes it clear I'm not.
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Many of those that are the most vocal about "no hands" bought their cars when AP was on their cars but not yet enabled. There were pictures of Elon and others driving around hands free. In fact that was part of the sales pitch. When v7.0 came out last October that enabled it there was a warning that people should be ready to take over at any time and *should* keep their hands on the wheel. Although that hadn't been mentioned before purchase or before 7.0 people didn't complain because it wasn't enforced in the sense that you could drive without hands. There were a couple of problems with that:Wait a sec while I climb into my flame resistant suit.....ooookkkk, good. I guess I'm a bit confused about the fuss here. The updated version of autopilot seems only to make the system more responsive, useful and robust. What's not to like about that? [pause......]. On the subject of the nags, Tesla has always made it quite clear that you need to keep your hands on the wheel. All the time. Not your knees, not a finger, not for purposes of the occasional tug, all the time. Now I certainly agree it would be nice, even very nice, if that weren't required (not required in the sense of will it work just fine without it, but required in the sense that the manufacturer says it is required in order to use the function), and I won't say that I've never used a light touch where autosteer is in play, but I guess I don't understand about complaints about getting nagged for not doing what Tesla says you have to do when using it. Sure, lawyers are involved, the NHTSA is involved, etc... but if you use it as you are intended to do, then you shouldn't get nagged. Complaining that it should only bother you when it really needs input is the argument for a different level of autonomy, which Tesla doesn't claim to be providing. Moniker's aside, this is a driver's assistance function that requires your constant attention at this stage of its development....legally, operationally, etc... I get that some vehicles seem to sense your feedback at different levels (my car is one week old and it requires very little touch), and that can drive too many nags and that is a valid complaint. And freedom from Da Man is certainly a valid attitude, But I don't understand the complaint about the car reminding you what you are supposed to be doing because you are literally not doing it. Yes, I'm sure you are paying attention. Yes, I'm sure your super-human reflexes will allow you to safely avoid any obstacle even while your hands rest on your legs, yes I'm sure you are the best knee driver in the world. All good. Except if you don't have your hands on the wheel as required you will get reminded you have to do so. Don't know why this all bothers me so much, but it seems like if I bought a dive watch that says it is good to 5 meters for 15 minutes and I take it to 25 meters for 35 minutes and it breaks, I can't say "but it says it is a dive watch and I should be able to dive with it and not have to listen to those silly restrictions." Ok. Closing the face seal on the flame suit.
and yes, I'm responding to various comments on the way too many threads on this topic, not something that is particular to this thread. Apologies!
1) AP was real squirrelly back then and it was hard to leave your hands off very long.
2) There were YouTube videos showing people doing dumb things like sitting in the back seat.
3) Regulators in certain countries wouldn't allow it.
Then comes v7.1 and to accommodate the regulators it *enforced* the hands on rule with timed nags which pissed some people off saying that wasn't what they paid for. To some this is just a further deterioration of functionality.
I should say I'm not among those that feel that way even though I was one of the first to have it. Having used it for a long time, I realize hands on the wheel is essential and I understand that given the current regulatory environment these controls have to exist.
And broader menu of voice commands. Those three things would make me happy (I have almost given up on the UI).
ferdboyce
Member
Having now 13,200 miles since January '16, including Seattle-LAX/PHX and Seattle-SLC and back, I have often noticed that the time/distance between "beep-beep-beep"s can vary anywhere from 20 - 30 seconds to as long as 3 or 4 minutes or more on the Interstate. It seems dependent not only on curving vs. straight stretches, but other traffic; i.e., few vehicles flowing smoothly or a mix of cars/trucks at varying speeds.
My Tesla "co-pilot" (I prefer that appellation) is a god-send on long trips, and it's capabilities are so far beyond anything I've ever experienced (1,000,000+ miles and counting) it's nothing short of magical. For isolated sections of Interstate with little or no traffic, my hands may not normally be touching the wheel, but are quite close to it (using lap and armrest) . . . and I NEVER forget that it is not the "autopilot" I used when I flew.
My Tesla "co-pilot" (I prefer that appellation) is a god-send on long trips, and it's capabilities are so far beyond anything I've ever experienced (1,000,000+ miles and counting) it's nothing short of magical. For isolated sections of Interstate with little or no traffic, my hands may not normally be touching the wheel, but are quite close to it (using lap and armrest) . . . and I NEVER forget that it is not the "autopilot" I used when I flew.
BertL
Active Member
Lots of people like to read into Elon's words what will precisely happen with the nag changes. Several seem to worry something (more) will be taken away. I personally suspect that if a change is introduced and in the real world is deemed not workable, the feedback will cause pretty immediate change with an OTA quick update like we've seen happen before with AP and functions that Elon is keen on.
I'm one of those that always keeps at least one hand on the wheel when AP is enabled without exception... I just don't and won't trust it with odd situations that have and may occur, and will probably be in that position as long as I own my AP 1.x MS... So none of theses sort of changes bother me. Others perhaps are less risk adverse. So be it for them, as long as if something goes wrong, they don't harm another person, someone else's property, or point the finger where it shouldn't be, for their decision.
Tesla is a business that must adhere to broader public laws and criticism, especially if they want to grow. The reality is, even Elon has to eventually listen and balance his vision against the realities of how drivers actually are using the tools his company creates, while remaining within the myriad of laws around the globe. IMHO, the (few?) idiots that have not adhered to the AP warnings from day 1, after clicking the "I agree" box about staying in control, then go ahead and do something dumb like put their backseat driving on YouTube, or are in an accident and point the finger at AP when they are at least partially at fault, are the ones causing refinements in "the nag" to take place like Tesla appears to once again be implementing. I think people's anger and displeasure should maybe be directed at the true source.
As I said before, once 8.x is delivered, I'll decide what does and does not work for me, and I'm not shy about then vocalizing my POV.
I'm one of those that always keeps at least one hand on the wheel when AP is enabled without exception... I just don't and won't trust it with odd situations that have and may occur, and will probably be in that position as long as I own my AP 1.x MS... So none of theses sort of changes bother me. Others perhaps are less risk adverse. So be it for them, as long as if something goes wrong, they don't harm another person, someone else's property, or point the finger where it shouldn't be, for their decision.
Tesla is a business that must adhere to broader public laws and criticism, especially if they want to grow. The reality is, even Elon has to eventually listen and balance his vision against the realities of how drivers actually are using the tools his company creates, while remaining within the myriad of laws around the globe. IMHO, the (few?) idiots that have not adhered to the AP warnings from day 1, after clicking the "I agree" box about staying in control, then go ahead and do something dumb like put their backseat driving on YouTube, or are in an accident and point the finger at AP when they are at least partially at fault, are the ones causing refinements in "the nag" to take place like Tesla appears to once again be implementing. I think people's anger and displeasure should maybe be directed at the true source.
As I said before, once 8.x is delivered, I'll decide what does and does not work for me, and I'm not shy about then vocalizing my POV.
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My guess is that the changes in 7.1 weren't just for the regulators (and not that this is what you are arguing), but also an attempt to deal with the actual feedback the car was sending them on how people were using the autopilot (plus obviously the videos of doing exactly the wrong thing...sitting in the back seat being my absolute favorite entry for the Darwin awards). As EM said, the Beta tag is there just to get folks to pay attention and treat it with care. And you do have to accept the terms. It absolutely drives with no hands, and for the most part does a great job. But as I learned today on my commute home, when it gets confused, things go south quickly (hello wall!). Failing to be able to react quickly enough not only puts you in danger but others as well. Hand position on the wheel can itself be a factor in how effectively an accident can be avoided, and there is no arguing with the fact that hands off, particularly at highway speeds, increases the possibility of a bad outcome. So I get that people think they are owed total freedom, but as with any inherently dangerous activity, it is not only the right of the manufacturer but its obligation to continuously evaluate the use and mis-use of its products and change how it requires people to interact. But for all the check the box we do on our ICE cars when the navigation screen pops up the first time, people still drive into lakes or walls or quarries or buildings because that's just human nature. It may be just that I'm a lawyer (but not THAT kind of lawyer), but I would understand that constant abuse of the autopilot could lead them to shutting you down. Again, it isn't just your right to enjoy the car however you want, but the right of a manufacturer to make changes to protect users and those that could be affected buy use. Ever wonder why there are so many steps required to use a Cuisinart?
I'm not sure how reliable the sensors are that are telling it if I'm holding the wheel.
On several occasions, I've been holding the wheel and gotten a please hold prompt - once or twice I got to an audible that way.
It doesn't really bother me now, but if the media is correct that the car will prompt far more often and penalize moving the wheel to clear it only, this could be a problem.
On several occasions, I've been holding the wheel and gotten a please hold prompt - once or twice I got to an audible that way.
It doesn't really bother me now, but if the media is correct that the car will prompt far more often and penalize moving the wheel to clear it only, this could be a problem.