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FIRMWARE UPDATE! AP2 Local road driving...and holy crap

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For someone who is praising the value of statistics and hard numbers in making claims about safety of this or that technology, you are pretty quick to claim AP2 is safe based on a shaky analogy (aka, your sample size is not even 1).

Or in your own words : there are all kinds of reasons why technology may fail or help. Just because one implementation increases safety doesn't mean a different one does too.

@schonelucht, I have explained my views at length upthread. Tl;dr: (1) anecdotal reports like those in this thread are meaningless in terms of assessing the system safety of AP2 compared to average drivers; (2) in the case of AP1 anecdotal reports turned out to be inaccurate in assessing system safety; and (3) Tesla has the AP2 data, the track record and every incentive to ensure AP2 is being rolled out safely so IMO it has far more credibility than anecdotal reports (especially those by mostly anonymous internet posters). Items 1 and 2 are statistical points. Item 3 is, in part, a judgment call.
 
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People should be able to argue different viewpoints without being subjected to ad hominem attacks. It's a very low form of argument and worth getting bent out of shape over in my view. It's best to stick to the subject and to lay off personal attacks. It does nothing to further your argument.

A thread is never truly complete until @Canuck has accused someone of an ad hominem attack...and italicized it!! It's the lowest form of argument, you know...says so right on wikipedia.

I'd place ad nauseum a close second. Sorry, ad nauseum.

FIRMWARE UPDATE! AP2 Local road driving...and holy crap

Autopilot and other Tesla info from Tesla's lawsuit against former employee

In a state of shock!......"this happens often and we are frustrated at the sales team level"

snippiness

Wow, see Trumps Climate and Energy Policy just put up on the White House Site

Convincing a skeptic

After 6 months of loving my car, version 8 makes me want to sell it

Why AP 2.0 Won't Be Here Soon, and It Won't Be What You Think It Is

To Elon Musk RE: My Former Model X

Remove the 'Dislike' Button?

Wild Interior

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1536373

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/960782

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1383505

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1273212

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1183499

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1080908

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/960793

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1022725

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1061356

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/784306

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/883403

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/806358

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/733572

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/785149

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/784295

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/827740

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/784917

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/596708

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/659672
 
Let's face it. Elon Musk is one part used car salesman and two parts Steve Jobs visionary. I think he has the best of intentions. But he has to continue to sell cars to keep the dream alive. In the fourth quarter of 2016, he was between a rock and a hard place. He basically had new cars to sell with zero modern technology, features many of us have had in our vehicles for at least the last 5 years. No automatic headlights, no automatic windshield wipers, no adaptive cruise control, and certainly no self-driving capability. Elon morphed into a used car salesman from everything we observed.

The more I read blogs/opinions the more I feel bad about what happened at Tesla and I hope they will improve. I bought the car because I believe Tesla can make a difference.

The initial shock for me was the terrible delivery experience, the randomness of the car/sensors, bad ghosting and the low build quality. I tried to get over those and to this day I am still waiting for my first SC visit. Then comes the 5.28 release which seems not work as expected on my car or on the roads I drive.

I am not sure at this point what to do/think. Should I continue believing or should I just bail out. I am debating canceling the M3, selling my MX(which I think I will do in an instant if I did not loose so much). If they don't improve (quality control, communications, more stable software) by the time they release the 3 my next car won't be a Tesla.
 
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As a customer, I would have preferred the steps you listed; as a stock holder I would have preferred he do what he did. I have mentioned in other threads previously that there have seemed to be a lot of decisions going that way the past several months (available colors, interior bundling, end to unlimited "free" supercharging, etc.).

As a stock holder you want to invite a massive class action based on misleading tens of thousands of customers?? LOL.
 
It took Tesla a full year after it started selling AP1 before it could deliver an incomplete version of it, and that was using the MobilEye technology. Anyone who believed Musk and bought into the hype that AP2 - an entirely home-rolled solution - would achieve the same functionality as AP1 in only a couple of months has only him or herself to blame. We seem to have very short memories around here. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

This is why I am advising that customers NOT purchase Autopilot and FSD until Tesla can properly ship such technologies and can show that they work as advertised. Paying $8,000 to beta test and help Tesla perfect a couple of important Model 3 features is very generous of the Tesla community, I must say, but I can imagine much better use of that money that might bring back better returns.
 
This thread is an amazing read if you care about technology as most of us do. You have a group of individuals who have grown up with the original Teslas who genuinely believe in the company and genuinely believe that everything will work out with the new cars. Instead of FanBoys, let's call them Cheerleaders. You have another group of us that have new cars which, at the moment, are dangerous as hell. I try to use AP2 for about an hour a day. I can honestly say I drive the car just as if I were landing an airplane for the first time. You can call it anecdotal or whatever you wish, but the car is more dangerous in AP2 mode than any other vehicle on the highway.

Let's face it. Elon Musk is one part used car salesman and two parts Steve Jobs visionary. I think he has the best of intentions. But he has to continue to sell cars to keep the dream alive. In the fourth quarter of 2016, he was between a rock and a hard place. He basically had new cars to sell with zero modern technology, features many of us have had in our vehicles for at least the last 5 years. No automatic headlights, no automatic windshield wipers, no adaptive cruise control, and certainly no self-driving capability. Elon morphed into a used car salesman from everything we observed.

Will it get better? Hope so. Should Elon have produced a very deceptive video to pitch a car that didn't exist? Probably not. I personally hope everything works out and that nobody gets killed during this grand experiment. In the meantime, I don't let my wife or daughter behind the wheel. But I'm optimistic that, in six months, things will be better. For Tesla's sake, I hope that both the Cheerleaders and I are vindicated.
I wish people would stop referencing the "deceptive video". This video has little to do with AP2 but is presenting a vision of FSD. FSD is not implemented in any car today and is not "expected" any sooner than the end of the year, and will probably be significantly later. It was produced to emulate future goals, not to demonstrate current capabilities. I drive an AP2 car and have rarely experienced any issues with TACC, though I think it is still in need of refinement. On the rare occasions when I was able to try Auto steering it worked, but is obviously not ready for prime time. I've driven Teslas since early 2013 and you can count me as among the patient. I was not mislead when I bought my 90D with AP2. I got what I expected and did not add FSD, that still seems a distant uncertainty. I will add that my over three years of Tesla ownership is teaching me to be a more patient man. sigh!
 
It took Tesla a full year after it started selling AP1 before it could deliver an incomplete version of it, and that was using the MobilEye technology. Anyone who believed Musk and bought into the hype that AP2 - an entirely home-rolled solution - would achieve the same functionality as AP1 in only a couple of months has only him or herself to blame. We seem to have very short memories around here. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

This is why I am advising that customers NOT purchase Autopilot and FSD until Tesla can properly ship such technologies and can show that they work as advertised. Paying $8,000 to beta test and help Tesla perfect a couple of important Model 3 features is very generous of the Tesla community, I must say, but I can imagine much better use of that money that might bring back better returns.

I totally agree!
I never expected AP2 to work any time soon!
The video they showed was for demonstrating there vision. IF it was functioning they wouldn't wait another year to (maybe) demonstrate a FSD ride from LA to NY. They would have done it NOW!

I actually bought both features because I wanted to support Tesla for future development!
Knowing AP2 might work beginning of 2017, probably during the first half!
FSD is expected to be 2 years away; at least!

IF they deliver a working EAP by April they would have done an amazing job.
To deliver a working, in house written AP within 6-8 months would be outstanding!
Less than a year for what other companies need(ed) a decade...
 
I wish people would stop referencing the "deceptive video". This video has little to do with AP2 but is presenting a vision of FSD. FSD is not implemented in any car today and is not "expected" any sooner than the end of the year, and will probably be significantly later. It was produced to emulate future goals, not to demonstrate current capabilities. I drive an AP2 car and have rarely experienced any issues with TACC, though I think it is still in need of refinement. On the rare occasions when I was able to try Auto steering it worked, but is obviously not ready for prime time. I've driven Teslas since early 2013 and you can count me as among the patient. I was not mislead when I bought my 90D with AP2. I got what I expected and did not add FSD, that still seems a distant uncertainty. I will add that my over three years of Tesla ownership is teaching me to be a more patient man. sigh!

The end of the year projection for Full Self-Driving (FSD) was to travel from California to New York with no hands. That implied full regulatory approval in every state line you cross. Never has it been suggested that it would not be available sooner in states where regulatory approval was secured. As for AP2 "having little to do with FSD", I respectfully disagree. Same radar, same cameras, same sonar, same functionality has been mentioned for AP2. The only difference with FSD is securing regulatory approval to take your hands off the steering wheel.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Helmuth
A thread is never truly complete until @Canuck has accused someone of an ad hominem attack...and italicized it!! It's the lowest form of argument, you know...says so right on wikipedia.

I'd place ad nauseum a close second. Sorry, ad nauseum.

FIRMWARE UPDATE! AP2 Local road driving...and holy crap

Autopilot and other Tesla info from Tesla's lawsuit against former employee

In a state of shock!......"this happens often and we are frustrated at the sales team level"

snippiness

Wow, see Trumps Climate and Energy Policy just put up on the White House Site

Convincing a skeptic

After 6 months of loving my car, version 8 makes me want to sell it

Why AP 2.0 Won't Be Here Soon, and It Won't Be What You Think It Is

To Elon Musk RE: My Former Model X

Remove the 'Dislike' Button?

Wild Interior

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

Hellcat Re-Match Results in beating P85D

New Buyers Beware / Negative repair process

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

snippiness

Dual chargers

this forum making hold out for a better tesla?

Disappointed with the D unveiling

Not paying extra $20.000 for decent seats in a $100k car.

EVERYONE Who Can Afford a Tesla Should Be Driving One

Supercharger for the Roadster (Elon said "No")

Disappointed with the D unveiling

Disappointed with the D unveiling

snippiness

Disappointed with the D unveiling

snippiness

Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

Ha! That's great that you follow me so closely. Nice work too on the list. I didn't click on them but assuming they are me calling out ad hominem attacks I stand by each and every one of them. Your attempt at ridicule is even lower than ad hominem attacks and it won't work with me.

It bothers me when people get attacked personally so I call them out. You're the kind of person who really likes it, and that says a lot about you. So I'll continue to do it, italics and all, until people deal with issues rather than personal attacks. You might need to take a deep look inside yourself as to why it bothers you so much. Then again, you're probably the type of person that cheers on when someone is being personally attacked, or bullied, rather than defending them.
 
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Can I get, like, even just a box?

Autosteer didn't even appear as an option on my drive home just now. Wtf.

IMG_7358.JPG
 
Autosteer didn't even appear as an option on my drive home just now
It learned about all your complaining and decided, well, nuts to you.

That happened to me last week. I thought I saw the autosteer icon flash yellow very briefly when the car powered up, but then went away and didn't display anything after that. But then no icon on the highway and got "Autosteer is temporarily unavailable" when I tried to engage it. Everything was normal next time I drove.
 
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  • Funny
Reactions: ABC2D and disagree
As a stock holder you want to invite a massive class action based on misleading tens of thousands of customers?? LOL.

That would be what, their 5th or 6th one? They'll be fine.

Has there even been one certified class action suit against suit against Tesla? Filing a class action lawsuit is simple and requires no ruling by the court. Even this bozo did that:

Details behind Model X owner's $5M+ class action lawsuit against Tesla

There was also one regarding the vehicle fires:

Tesla Hit With Class Action Lawsuit Following Third Model S Fire | Inside EVs

But none of these were certified. Once a class action is certified under Rule 23 then in most cases notices must be sent describing the class action, or published, or broadcast to class members. As part of this notice procedure, there may have to be several notices, first a notice giving class members the opportunity to opt out of the class, i.e. if individuals wish to proceed with their own litigation they are entitled to do so, only to the extent that they give timely notice to the class counsel or the court that they are opting out. Second, if there is a settlement proposal, the court will usually direct the class counsel to send a settlement notice to all the members of the certified class, informing them of the details of the proposed settlement.

This happened with the Nissan Leaf and battery degradation. I am not aware of any involving Tesla but perhaps I missed them.

Having a class action certified by the Court is a completely different ball game than simply filing a class action suit, and certainly could hurt the stock price depending on the nature of the claim and damages involved.
 
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