Please sue because I sure as hell can't read all that.Why the lawyers though? I don't think anyone feels like Tesla deliberately lied in order to take the money and run. It's not like a Kickstarter project where the founder of some project skips town with everyones money.
I also find it odd that it's always the rich people who lack a technical understanding that are the sue happy ones. Is it your pride, and not wanting to ever have the short end of the stick? I admit I can't even imagine the humiliation I would feel if I bought into FSD full hook line and sinker. Just how naive can a person be? Most of the people I've seen getting it simply want to save lives, and they feel it's a worthy investment and maybe Tesla will throw them a bone with a feature or two. Or maybe they'll have a point to point FSD within a couple years.
Now that isn't to say I didn't have my own grievance where I felt like they damaged the resale value of AP1 cars by over promising on what AP2 could do, and most certainly being way too optimistic about the timeline. Then Elon has the gull to say people have to get used to the fast technical innovation cycle when there wasn't any ACTUAL innovation outside the hardware being released. But, the hardware was so far ahead of the software that who knows if it will actually be capable of FSD.
But, at the end of the day it's not like most any other product you buy. it's undeniable that Tesla's approach is helping to accelerate the drive towards full self driving despite how frustrating of a journey this is, and will be. We've barely even scratched the surface of hair pulling moments. Things aren't going to suddenly get better in March even if they reach parity. Then it's going to be about something else, or some event.
Now that isn't to say we let Tesla off the hook.
We all know they have to be more communicative about AP2 developments.
We know they're not communicative in keeping us up to date with the fleet learning progress, and versions. Where this data is, and if there is versioning for it. Or what this data looks like. It's all hidden from us so we have no idea of the confidence level on the road were on.
We know their release notes are lacking in information.
We know that sometimes they do some REALLY dumb things on updates.
But, we can accomplish fixing those issues and more in ways that don't involve lawyers. In any lawsuit they are the only ones that really win. Plus that would delay the rollout of these potentially life saving feature. That's something we can't afford now that the fatality rate has gone up 2 years in a row.
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FIRMWARE UPDATE! AP2 Local road driving...and holy crap
- Thread starter Skalinator
- Start date
Please sue because I sure as hell can't read all that.
[QUOTE="oktane, post: 1977501What I really need are some honest answers from Tesla, particularly, when does Tesla reasonably expect AP2 to function at a level exceeding AP1? If not anytime soon, what is the reason for that? Assuming it won't be released soon, how will Tesla compensate the victims of this false-advertising? What steps will they take to prevent this in the future? Why do they continue to promote and accept money for features that are inoperative?[/QUOTE]
Here's the issue @oktane - there is a category of post on internet forums like yours - and it always draws ridicule. This is the very long "Company or individual did me wrong / lied to me / ripped me off. I am angry, very very angry - and here is why - multiple paragraphs follow." Often the post is accompanied by vague threats to take legal action.
Whether or not you are correct about the facts you are not going to get sympathy here. By and large this group (myself included) is composed of guys happy to be driving truly bleeding, bloody edge technology. Regardless of whether Elon is wildly optimistic (or even lies/misleads) - he delivers the best product on the planet time after time - and that's what I care about personally. If he lied and then delivered something inferior to other automakers I'd have a problem with it. But he doesn't - when he under-delivers by his OWN standards he is still a galaxy ahead of what is available from the competition.
We are 2.5 years from the release of AP 1.0 hardware and there is still nothing in the market which can touch it. NOTHING. Yet Tesla has leapfrogged itself and accelerated ahead again.
Also those of us who have been around the block before for AP 1 and have seen how long it took to be developed - we're prepared to wait and watch slow steady progress. I can see your point and disappointment - but I don't think you, and many other posters understand or remember the AP 1 vs AP 2 development cycle - this appears to be your first Tesla.
12 months went by with AP 1.0 - with zero functionality in self steering
18 months have gone by since self steering was released during which it has steadily improved.
AP 2.0 has been in the wild over 85% less time than AP 1.0 and yet its development/improvement is occurring far faster than AP 1.0 did. Four months after AP 1.0 hardware was released it did not work AT ALL. You however have self steering below 50 mph on freeways. Eight months from now you will not even remember this thread and neither will we.
You seem to be hyperventilating and convinced Tesla does not know what it is doing. I am convinced you didn't own a Tesla with Autopilot from October 2014 until now because you seem unaware of the timeline of the last version and unable to understand how much faster the progress is happening on version 2.
The very nature of machine learning means Tesla could not have released this product in a mature state. In addition, Tesla has the very first implementation of any automaker of Drive PX2 - the hardware was literally just released. But the big project is the fleet learning and that takes time.
You're in for the ride of your life as this system evolves and improves. So far - despite what you think - the progress markers are very encouraging and make me quite optimistic for where this suite will be in 8 months. The guys who have become pessimists about AP 2.0 clearly do not remember the actual history of AP 1.0's timeline and compared it to how fast AP 2.0 is learning/evolving/improving.
Here's the issue @oktane - there is a category of post on internet forums like yours - and it always draws ridicule. This is the very long "Company or individual did me wrong / lied to me / ripped me off. I am angry, very very angry - and here is why - multiple paragraphs follow." Often the post is accompanied by vague threats to take legal action.
Whether or not you are correct about the facts you are not going to get sympathy here. By and large this group (myself included) is composed of guys happy to be driving truly bleeding, bloody edge technology. Regardless of whether Elon is wildly optimistic (or even lies/misleads) - he delivers the best product on the planet time after time - and that's what I care about personally. If he lied and then delivered something inferior to other automakers I'd have a problem with it. But he doesn't - when he under-delivers by his OWN standards he is still a galaxy ahead of what is available from the competition.
We are 2.5 years from the release of AP 1.0 hardware and there is still nothing in the market which can touch it. NOTHING. Yet Tesla has leapfrogged itself and accelerated ahead again.
Also those of us who have been around the block before for AP 1 and have seen how long it took to be developed - we're prepared to wait and watch slow steady progress. I can see your point and disappointment - but I don't think you, and many other posters understand or remember the AP 1 vs AP 2 development cycle - this appears to be your first Tesla.
- October 2014 - AP 1 hardware unleashed in production cars.
- Nov 2014 - Oct 2015 - ZERO self steer functionality released to ANYONE. Grouching and b*tching and moaning ensues. Things like "Tesla will never get it right." "I'm going to sue." "Damnit I want my autosteer NOW" etc. etc.
- Oct 2015 - Self steering released in v 7.0. Very glitchy
- Nov 2015 - Feb 2016 - Self steering in AP 1.0 slowly but surely improved to the point where it is now solid as a rock.
12 months went by with AP 1.0 - with zero functionality in self steering
18 months have gone by since self steering was released during which it has steadily improved.
AP 2.0 has been in the wild over 85% less time than AP 1.0 and yet its development/improvement is occurring far faster than AP 1.0 did. Four months after AP 1.0 hardware was released it did not work AT ALL. You however have self steering below 50 mph on freeways. Eight months from now you will not even remember this thread and neither will we.
You seem to be hyperventilating and convinced Tesla does not know what it is doing. I am convinced you didn't own a Tesla with Autopilot from October 2014 until now because you seem unaware of the timeline of the last version and unable to understand how much faster the progress is happening on version 2.
The very nature of machine learning means Tesla could not have released this product in a mature state. In addition, Tesla has the very first implementation of any automaker of Drive PX2 - the hardware was literally just released. But the big project is the fleet learning and that takes time.
You're in for the ride of your life as this system evolves and improves. So far - despite what you think - the progress markers are very encouraging and make me quite optimistic for where this suite will be in 8 months. The guys who have become pessimists about AP 2.0 clearly do not remember the actual history of AP 1.0's timeline and compared it to how fast AP 2.0 is learning/evolving/improving.
As for legal action, returning your car, compensation, etc. - I am making a point on my calendar to ask you 9 months from now about how that legal action is coming along - or whether you are enjoying your Tesla steering itself down the road.
disagree
hos epi to polu
Going 70 down the highway with TACC on and my car did a hard break as it passed under a sign. Luckily no one was on my tail.
Helmuth
Member
How much did your car slow down?
I had a few hard breaks also. It felt really scary!
But I realized it never slowed down more than 5mph!!!
Even though it felt like decreasing 30mph or more...
I had a few hard breaks also. It felt really scary!
But I realized it never slowed down more than 5mph!!!
Even though it felt like decreasing 30mph or more...
Indeed, this happens all too often on this forum. Likely due to some childhood trauma suffered by the poster which causes them to find they are the frequent victim of injustice.
On this forum I try to have compassion while I usually fail to resist the urge to point out the flaws in their reasoning.
I eventually muster up the good sense to add them to the "ignore" list.
The OPs complaints were all the same things that the early versions of AP1 had. It improves over time. Those who can't adjust themselves and end up complaining and suffering should buy a lesser car that can meet their lowered expectations for that car.
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I really, really hate to be "that" guy, but it is 'BRAKE', not 'BREAK'. It's slowly driving me crazy.....
It's just to much too take........
Helmuth
Member
I know, sorry!
Happened while typing on my phone with all the "smart" iPhone features enabled...
Thanks for the "pep talk", I think.
I'm not looking for sympathy from anyone and don't expect any. I will be thrilled if Tesla pulls a rabbit out of the hat and makes this work soon. I'll be much less frustrated if we get regular updates and honest communication from Tesla - unlike the dishonest communication we had prior to purchase.
No offense towards you, but what I ridicule are people who turn off their brains and defend business practices that defraud consumers, cutting edge or not. It's because these posters are so enamored with Tesla or Elon Musk that they turn a blind eye to unethical (and illegal) business practices and encourage them to continue. I think it's a form of Stockholm syndrome.
The beauty of the internet is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Only because this is a pro-Tesla forum do we have more people that share the "Tesla can do no wrong" view. Trust me, out in the "real world" people do not appreciate these business practices.
Despite it all, I actually do want Tesla to succeed. However, not at the expense of consumers who are misled into the purchase.
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lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
When did this become a pro-Tesla forum? Last time I checked, I hated my bloody Tesla after reading this stupid forum. It's crap. Crap, crap, crap
Joe F
Disruption is hard.
Can't give you an absolute number as I was too busy taking corrective actions and not staring at the screen, but I've had it brake very hard, to the point it kicked in antilock. This was on TACC at the old 70 MPH max on I95 South. Don't remember now exactly where, but think it was between Baltimore and DC.
One person at the local SC claims they never heard oh AP2 hard braking for overhead signs. Real tempted to make the run to Richmond VA again and video the 10 or so times TACC brakes falsely. Would be interesting to see if there's been any Mothership learning that improved this route...
One person at the local SC claims they never heard oh AP2 hard braking for overhead signs. Real tempted to make the run to Richmond VA again and video the 10 or so times TACC brakes falsely. Would be interesting to see if there's been any Mothership learning that improved this route...
What I ridicule are people who imagine that they are victims of evil Tesla when they are really victims of their own unrealistic expectations and fantasies. You have been asked, and failed to answer, exactly the legal basis for your supposed claim. Sure you could file a nuisance lawsuit, like this one Another 'Sudden Acceleration' lawsuit
but you won't.
Because no lawyer would take it on contingency -- even its nuisance value isn't worth it.
And you are likely not quite stupid and rich enough to fund it yourself -- as was the Korean celebrity who drove his Model X into his living room.
AP development is something that early users of AP1 already went through. You are now dealing with it for AP2. It's the reasonable price to pay for being on the edge of innovation. But it certainly isn't for all people who are constitutionally unable to accept that there are engineering trade-offs and real time further development happening before our eyes. For some people it is fascinating to watch. For others it evidently causes them too much suffering and grief, they should probably move on to a more sedate cadillac or volvo.
Unrealistic to expect an advertised feature to work? How so? The legal basis is false claims and false advertising. Not sure what you are asking for, the evidence speaks for itself. Let me again refer you to the fake FSD video. Do you think this car actually exists or will function as shown in the video as claimed?
Contingency - would only be worth it in a class action.
Since I'm a nerd I'd be fine helping Tesla working out bugs with beta testing their AP2, if it was a voluntary decision. I do think it is fascinating. But that's not how it was sold to me or what I expected. Therein lies the problem, I was baited into it.
I make it a point to make sure no one else buys a Tesla under the same expectation I had, ie that any advertised features work as expected (range, performance, blind-spot, forward collision, autopilot). Do not take Tesla's claims at face-value since they are blatantly false.
I've had so many friends, family, and strangers tell me they are interested in buying a Tesla as well. I wish I were in a position to recommend it. However, I have to disclose the reality that no, the car will not pick them up at curbside, it will not drive itself down the highway, no it won't make 300 miles, or anything that the general public has been lead to believe. I tell them to hold on to their hard earned money and wait until the features are actually available (maybe 2 years) and NOT buy a Tesla right now. Maybe in a few years from Tesla or a competing brand, but not now.
Contingency - would only be worth it in a class action.
Since I'm a nerd I'd be fine helping Tesla working out bugs with beta testing their AP2, if it was a voluntary decision. I do think it is fascinating. But that's not how it was sold to me or what I expected. Therein lies the problem, I was baited into it.
I make it a point to make sure no one else buys a Tesla under the same expectation I had, ie that any advertised features work as expected (range, performance, blind-spot, forward collision, autopilot). Do not take Tesla's claims at face-value since they are blatantly false.
I've had so many friends, family, and strangers tell me they are interested in buying a Tesla as well. I wish I were in a position to recommend it. However, I have to disclose the reality that no, the car will not pick them up at curbside, it will not drive itself down the highway, no it won't make 300 miles, or anything that the general public has been lead to believe. I tell them to hold on to their hard earned money and wait until the features are actually available (maybe 2 years) and NOT buy a Tesla right now. Maybe in a few years from Tesla or a competing brand, but not now.
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If you can do so in safe conditions for yourself and others, you really should !
More data, as detailed as possible, is rarely a bad thing.
drshan
Active Member
I'm having trouble following this logic. Was it unrealistic (or fantasy lol) to think that Tesla could deliver a functional Autopilot system when they had already been selling such a system for 12 months? Was it unrealistic to take a test drive in an AP1 car, place an order...and expect the delivered vehicle to be capable of the same performance? Was it unrealistic to expect Tesla to meet their advertised Dec 2016 enable date?
Your post indicates EVERYONE should have known that Tesla would fail to meet their own claims and past performance. I even follow Tesla on this forum and easily might have believed their schedule. It just didn't seem that challenging given what little we knew at the time. (Which was by Tesla's design, and the reason they clearly sought to mislead)
I don't think you are being honest with yourself about what a typical buyer should have expected. These are not unrealistic expectations and hiding behind the "bleeding edge" BS is fine as long as people know what they are signing up for. Have you actually been to a dealer? Ever eavesdrop on what salespeople are telling prospective buyers?
It seems the only thing 'unrealistic' here is how quickly Tesla thought they could duplicate a decade of Mobileye innovation. The buyers are right, and will get louder. They add 25,000 disappointed buyers per quarter. If it isn't resolved soon, your weak defensive posts on a forum aren't going to do much to quell the frustration.
drshan
Active Member
Just down
I just downloaded and tested the new local road autosteer. Ummmmmmm.....wow. No thanks!
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