First drive on Thusday....BMW Alpina B7 to Tesla P85D?????

[ecarfan]

As consumers, we can buy a motor and batteries for a Tesla for under 20k. I'd bet its double to get A BMW 7 series engine with twin turbos, and whatever else is a must have to run a gas engine.

I was talking about the production cost of a Tesla drivetrain (motors/inverter/battery) compared to a typical BMW/MB ICE (not a twin turbo 7 series engine, not sure why you picked an extreme cost example). The Tesla drivetrain costs a lot more to manufacture.
I am skeptical that a Tesla owner can buy a replacement drivetrain for under $20K.

 

[3s-a-charm]

I am let down the most for real. I think reading and reading had my expectations too high. The not having interior storage, and simpleness of the interior was tough for me. I know its a different car, but if you are going to get the same type of money, I expect the same level of quality. I know the tech is there, and understand that, but the motors and batteries put together likely cost half of what a BMW or Mercedes engine cost. Given that, I feel as though there were too many other corners cut inside. If it was extreme luxury inside, I would not be having this conversation, and would be driving my Tesla right now. I had so many people here telling me I was crazy for even thinking about trading an Alpina B7 in on a Tesla. But I just thought they had no idea due to not experiencing a Tesla so I gave it a shot. I am not knocking the car, just saying as for creature comforts, it has a long way to go compared to it's similarly priced competitors. Something in me still wants one, just can't give up what I have for it. If I had a step or two down of a car now, I would do it in a second.

Sorry to hear about your disappointment. I can understand because as some pointed out the two cars are barely comparable. Alpine B7 is smooth, powerful, luxurious and exclusive. Tesla although also smooth, powerful and somewhat luxurious the interior does look like it belongs in a $60k car - not a $130k car. That can be difficult to give up for some.

The decision for me was about weighting - I put more weight into the technology, smooth (insane) power, low maintenance, no gas station pumps, and an overall feeling of "understated luxury" that says "look at this great car" without having to hold my nose in the air at the same time. It's a more approachable car and (from my experience) is more broadly respected than an expensive BMW.

In the end just do what's right for you. After one year with my P85D, the only ICE I would consider is a convertible (but only because Tesla doesn't make one), or a light-weight sports car as I miss tossing a light car around corners sometimes. Other than that there is no fathomable reason for me to want any more than what I have now. It has been a very enjoyable experience.

Let us know which way you end up going.

 

[S'toon]

I am let down the most for real. I think reading and reading had my expectations too high. The not having interior storage, and simpleness of the interior was tough for me. I know its a different car, but if you are going to get the same type of money, I expect the same level of quality. I know the tech is there, and understand that, but the motors and batteries put together likely cost half of what a BMW or Mercedes engine cost. Given that, I feel as though there were too many other corners cut inside. If it was extreme luxury inside, I would not be having this conversation, and would be driving my Tesla right now. I had so many people here telling me I was crazy for even thinking about trading an Alpina B7 in on a Tesla. But I just thought they had no idea due to not experiencing a Tesla so I gave it a shot. I am not knocking the car, just saying as for creature comforts, it has a long way to go compared to it's similarly priced competitors. Something in me still wants one, just can't give up what I have for it. If I had a step or two down of a car now, I would do it in a second.

Fair enough. If it's not for you, it's not for you. Different people have different metrics of what they want in a car.

Some people have predicting a revamp, given the improvements in things like storage space in the Model X. Tesla seems to spring these things out with little advance warning.

 

[desant89]

I was talking about the production cost of a Tesla drivetrain (motors/inverter/battery) compared to a typical BMW/MB ICE (not a twin turbo 7 series engine, not sure why you picked an extreme cost example). The Tesla drivetrain costs a lot more to manufacture.
I am skeptical that a Tesla owner can buy a replacement drivetrain for under $20K.

I chose that car because that is the same price range as the Model S. A 3 series would not be apples to apples since my main gripe is the class of vehicle according to price. I am sure Tesla has heard this a ton, and will make the cabins a bit more luxurious soon. As I said before, If i had a lower level car right now, I would easily see myself buying the Model S. However, getting rid of what I have now to get into the Tesla seems like a downgrade at this point. I was taken by the technology, but I am sure once that wears off, I am left with what I feel should be a 60k vehicle.

 

[ecarfan]

I was taken by the technology, but I am sure once that wears off, I am left with what I feel should be a 60k vehicle.

I would not be so sure of that.
What many many Tesla owners, and EV owners in general, find after owning their car for awhile is that every other car they drive (non-EV) feels archaic and antiquated: last century technology.
The instantaneous torque, astonishing acceleration, and silky smooth performance DOES NOT GET OLD.
ICE cars are what seem old.

 

[Max*]

I would not be so sure of that.
What many many Tesla owners, and EV owners in general, find after owning their car for awhile is that every other car they drive (non-EV) feels archaic and antiquated: last century technology.
The instantaneous torque, astonishing acceleration, and silky smooth performance DOES NOT GET OLD.
ICE cars are what seem old.

While I agree with you, I think he was referring to the non-plush interior of the Tesla compared to some of the other higher end ICE's

 

[SDRick]

We were in a very similar situation with our 2012 7 series as the lease was ending last October. I fell in love with Tesla's electric drivetrain and torque. The instant torque was not a big deal for my wife so there was little upside for her. For even money, I may have persuaded her toward the Tesla even though it would've been a step down in her eyes. Unfortunately, it was not close to even money. We leased a 2015 7 series (about $98,000 sticker) for $910\month plus tax with no money down.

A similarly equipped and sticker priced Tesla was 4 or $500 more a month (no money down) and as many stated before, the luxury, creature comforts, particularly the seats, are not in the same class.

That said, I still want a Tesla. The two cars at the top of my list are the Tesla and a Corvette ZO6 to replace my 2009 Z 51 Corvette, which by the way feels like a slow noisy dog compared to the Tesla. If I was going to add a six-figure vehicle to my stable it would be the Tesla first and then perhaps the ZO6 Corvette.

 

[boonedocks]

I would not be so sure of that.
What many many Tesla owners, and EV owners in general, find after owning their car for awhile is that every other car they drive (non-EV) feels archaic and antiquated: last century technology.
The instantaneous torque, astonishing acceleration, and silky smooth performance DOES NOT GET OLD.
ICE cars are what seem old.

2ecarfan. I love my S85D and wouldn't give it up at for any car made today. With that said I understand @desant89's point of view completely. His and my BMW HAVE A 0-60 of 4.1 or better and absolutely insane performance even after that. Even tho my Tesla is insane off the line, after that it's not a fair game anymore with the BMW tromping. Add that to the fact that at 75mph my BMW is 10dB quieter than my Model S and has an interior that can not be touched. My BMW has more than 120k miles and has never nor now had a squeak or rattle or vibration. If you haven't owned one it is tough to be a critic.

With all of that said I would never give up my MS. It is different and unique in its own way and I have grown to love those things

 

[jeffro01]

I would not be so sure of that.
What many many Tesla owners, and EV owners in general, find after owning their car for awhile is that every other car they drive (non-EV) feels archaic and antiquated: last century technology.
The instantaneous torque, astonishing acceleration, and silky smooth performance DOES NOT GET OLD.
ICE cars are what seem old.

^^This...

I'm sure that Tesla has lost some sales over the less than equal interior quality versus the cars Tesla compares the Model S to. I just simply don't care. I will never by another car with an ICE. Ever again. End. Of. Story... Combine that with the shenanigans that GM is trying to pull in Indiana, and other places, it's my desire to never buy another car from a third party dealer again either. So... It's Tesla for me or walking, and I ain't walking...

Jeff

 

[AustinP]

This thread was quite compelling, like a good story, where one (me anyway), was expecting a happy end. Of course, happy end to me, hoping for a new Tesla owner. It may be this is OP's happy end to not go for the Tesla.

Still... Maybe you need to also factor in what was key to me, and probably to others. Buying the Model S is investing in the only company with a strong commitment in changing our civilized countries' impact on every creature's comfort. Not only when sitting in a luxury car. :biggrin:
I bought the car, stepping up from an Audi A4, so as OP said, a no brainier in terms of comfort probably. :tongue: Except even a modest Audi A4 has storage and console. I also fell puzzled that buying this car, It would mean stuff and kid's stuff laying around. It's not, and the kids love the car. In the end, and it's often hard to explain to my friend still driving A6 or Bmw 5 or Maserati how different an electric car is. There is really no going back.
And back to my main reason, I have this personal satisfaction that I take, very modestly, part in something important. Important to me anyway

 

[mobe]

I am in the minority, but I think the interior in The model S is fantastic. It is so clean and harmonious. As the old commercial used to say, " It's got everything you need and nothing you don't".
For me the attraction is that they made it so clean and uncluttered.
When it is powered off there are no gauges and no controls visible.
Like the spaceship on "Independence Day", until it powers up it is an mystery as to how it could function.
To me the interiors in most of the so called higher end luxury cars resemble a bordello. " hey let's see if we can work in carbon fiber, and leather and titanium trim and alcantara. Ooooo, oooo, throw some wood in there too, and neon lights"! " oh yeah, it must have at least 987 individually lit buttons for that 1980,s commercial aircraft cockpit look"! YUCK!
Simplicity and clean design are the ultimate luxury.

 

[heems]

I for one don't get OP's line of reasoning. He's basically saying all cars of the same price point should have comparable interior. Seems reasonable no? Let me stretch that logic and see if it still holds in a little thought experiment. A go cart with anti-gravity (i.e. No wheels) that costs the same as the precious Alpina. Now s/he would complain and whine how the go cart is missing all the bells and whistles. Yet the dang cart flies on air (and folks would be buying them like nuts)! See my point? What's under the hood matters. It's all one package. You can't pick and choose parts of a car to compare. Otherwise the logic seems flawed to me. Model S is a computer on wheels. Alpina is a dinasour with a diamond studded saddle. But hey it's the diamonds that count no?

 

[skilly]

I for one don't get OP's line of reasoning. He's basically saying all cars of the same price point should have comparable interior. Seems reasonable no? Let me stretch that logic and see if it still holds in a little thought experiment. A go cart with anti-gravity (i.e. No wheels) that costs the same as the precious Alpina. Now s/he would complain and whine how the go cart is missing all the bells and whistles. Yet the dang cart flies on air (and folks would be buying them like nuts)! See my point? What's under the hood matters. It's all one package. You can't pick and choose parts of a car to compare. Otherwise the logic seems flawed to me. Model S is a computer on wheels. Alpina is a dinasour with a diamond studded saddle. But hey it's the diamonds that count no?

Kind of reminds me of the Ferrari 360 Challenge cars....no carpet, door cards, and if you want a radio thats extra, but its the most expensive and most sought version of the 360.

With that said, the MS could step it up a little in its offerings for its finishes. The premium leather option still leaves a LOT to be desired; some of the creature comforts considered standard in that luxury class are missing (LED headlights; cooling seats; a CENTER CONSOLE. massage options etc etc). I agree that this is cutting a new category in the car market, but its also wanting to play in that field of 7series and S class buyers. In some comparisons it kicks butt and others it looks like it showed up at a black tie affair with a nice suit adorned with Converse Allstars to finish the look.

How about basic storage in the cabin?? Its great to have two trunks but when I want to store more than a wallet and sunglasses I have to think it through...WHY didn't they consider storage in the door cards - thats hardly luxury and without a center console, seems like a no brainer...these are the things that make me wonder if the original designer had spent any time in a car at all, let alone a luxury spec car....but I digress....

 

[lolachampcar]

mobe
Actually, you are not.

I come from a long line of BMWs (Seven and, mostly, M5s). That ended in 2013 with my first MS. When I first got the car, I was put off by all the "air around me" and lack of the most basic of things I was accustomed to like storage, buttons and cup holders. A month later and I was thinking man the BMW is clostrophobic inside. All that big car on the outside with so little space on the inside. I was also grateful for all the crap collectors being gone. All those storage spaces simply collected crap (in my case). I've really come to appreciate the open airy nature of Model S and do not ever see myself going back.

I really can not blame those that see Model S at a disadvantage over 70 mph. I seldom drive in a spirited fashion above 70 mph and, when I do, well that is what the McLaren is for.

It is a new world and one definitely not for everyone. We have been trained to value certain things in a car. These things are those that can be improved, altered or upgraded model to model so that is what is marketed to us and that is what we crave. Model S has something else to offer and that something else is where all the value (and cost to produce) is placed.

 

[heems]

It is a new world and one definitely not for everyone. We have been trained to value certain things in a car. These things are those that can be improved, altered or upgraded model to model so that is what is marketed to us and that is what we crave. Model S has something else to offer and that something else is where all the value (and cost to produce) is placed.

Bingo!! Nicely said.

 

[Speedeamon]

Hello, I'm new to this site but I test cars and write about it. I tested he 2013 Alpina B7 back then and I was disappointed because the handling was so-so and the steering feel was not like any BMW I've ddriven in the past. Perhaps that was the first electric steering. At the limit, I felt a hint of under steer and body roll that bothered me. On the other hand The M6 Gran Coupe was a real BMW and one thatt I would consider. Except I now have a P90D with Ludicrous. It not only handles well and is very stable in corners but instills confidence in driving it hard. What I miss is the snarly exhaust sound

 

[desant89]

Hello, I'm new to this site but I test cars and write about it. I tested he 2013 Alpina B7 back then and I was disappointed because the handling was so-so and the steering feel was not like any BMW I've ddriven in the past. Perhaps that was the first electric steering. At the limit, I felt a hint of under steer and body roll that bothered me. On the other hand The M6 Gran Coupe was a real BMW and one thatt I would consider. Except I now have a P90D with Ludicrous. It not only handles well and is very stable in corners but instills confidence in driving it hard. What I miss is the snarly exhaust sound

I get it with the Alpina steering, but I don't think most people are getting one of those to road race. I like the soft steering that it has. My whole think is basic essentials inside. Its a family sedan with not cupholders for the kids, not center console or sunglasses. This would be find when cars were first being invented, but since we are so far alond, these are very basic expectations. As for Driveability, I drove a 90D. Being that my Alpina also has X drive, the performance was nothing to speak about when I drove the Tesla, I noticed how abrupt (in a good way)the acceleration is, but again no more than my current vehicle. In talking about luxury sedans, I know there some that do, but we are not really quarter mile racers here. For me the power on the highway nudges out the low end torque as far as importance in this kind of vehicle. I agree with the M6 comments as I also have an M6 vert right now that I am keeping. I am not bashing the Tesla. I do like the car. If I still had my Audi A8L, I would have no issue making the change. I just cannot get past the interior, and basic things that are missing. The drive was so hyped up ahead of time that is was actually underwhelming to both myself, and my wife (again 90D). BMW has a smoother ride, faster, and way more comfortable. I am actually mad that I have the BMW if that makes any sense............. I will remain active in here as everyone in here is great, and also due to the fact that I will own a Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

I for one don't get OP's line of reasoning. He's basically saying all cars of the same price point should have comparable interior. Seems reasonable no? Let me stretch that logic and see if it still holds in a little thought experiment. A go cart with anti-gravity (i.e. No wheels) that costs the same as the precious Alpina. Now s/he would complain and whine how the go cart is missing all the bells and whistles. Yet the dang cart flies on air (and folks would be buying them like nuts)! See my point? What's under the hood matters. It's all one package. You can't pick and choose parts of a car to compare. Otherwise the logic seems flawed to me. Model S is a computer on wheels. Alpina is a dinasour with a diamond studded saddle. But hey it's the diamonds that count no?

Well fortunately, we are talking about family sedans in the post 100k range. So there are expectations. If the ride were better, faster, and more comfortable, I would agree. Given that a family sedan is used to haul a family around, I guess I am expecting too much for my money. I think the technology points are way off in you comments too. I have distronic, and have in my past 4 cars and never use it. I do not think I would be using autopilot, although it is cool, when driving with my children on the highway. However, I will use a cooled seat in the hot summer. Or if my back is sore, a massage can also be nice. I am giving the Tesla the edge on it breaking new ground with technology. The mix is see highly advanced futuristic technology with extremely lacking convenience features that are standard in ANY car. We cannot talk about performance as what is under the hood is not seen, and my car is faster in every aspect than the car that I drove. Even if it were a P90D, I am sure it wins in 1/4, but will get eaten up highway so that comes down to preference. As far as exclusiveness, you can come to your own conclusion. I am not saying an Alpina is the best car in the world. Of course there are much better. I am just comparing a car that I know about to another one that I test drove last week. NOBODY wanted to love the Tesla more than me. I am in a tech field, and live for technology which is why I know I will own on at some point no matter what. However I am not ready to say it is the best thing since sliced bread at this point.

 

[Roamer]

IYO, what makes the P85+ a better sports car than the P85D?

It depends on what you are looking for. The P85D can win drag races while being driven by a 16 year old putting on makeup. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the incredible integration of all the various technology and how it all works together to make the car an incredible machine.

The first time the P85D pulled me thru a tight turn I realized it wasn't a car that required skill to enjoy driving. So my opinion is the P85+ provides the ultimate in real driving experience. Staggered wheels with a big motor driving you forward and steering wheels on the front that can be finessed. Sometimes driving means you actually get to/have to drive the car.

Maybe a comparison between a front drive errand runner and a rear drive muscle car. The P85+ feels and handles like a traditional performance car. Perhaps I am a little nostalgic for the days when you had to drive and control the car. I recall driving my Dodge Viper SRT 10 when it first came out. It was pure animal that had to be tamed and driven. It was never easy to drive and also was never boring. The only driving aid was anti skid brakes. You actually have to drive cars like that.

So yes I enjoy the P85D but find if you want to feel the wheels in a turn you can't beat the P85+.

 

[jaguar36]

Why are you comparing the performance of the mid-range Tesla (which starts at ~$80k) to a BMW that starts at like 50% more? A P90DL would be a much more apt comparison and it will kill the BMW in acceleration at any speed, off the line (3.2 vs 4.3 0-60) or on the highway (1.8 vs 3.3 50-70mph).

 

[lolachampcar]

Roamer,

My PD is just as lively as my P+; I'm just going faster in the PD