I noticed the same thing about the L4 feature being from 37 to 81mph. So I wonder what happens when traffic slows down to less than 37mph, I don't think an automatic transition from the L4 mode to the L3 mode would be acceptable. If the driver is sleeping or not paying attention, they wouldn't know it is in level 3 mode now. So I image when traffic slows down, the driver would have to take over control and then they could activate traffic jam pilot. And if L4 mode is activated and traffic slows down...and the driver does not respond... I guess the system would have to pull over would have to get to the farthest right lane too... could be tricky. I am not sure how that would work.
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First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona
- Thread starter Bladerskb
- Start date
I noticed the same thing about the L4 feature being from 37 to 81mph. So I wonder what happens when traffic slows down to less than 37mph, I don't think an automatic transition from the L4 mode to the L3 mode would be acceptable. If the driver is sleeping or not paying attention, they wouldn't know it is in level 3 mode now. So I image when traffic slows down, the driver would have to take over control and then they could activate traffic jam pilot. And if L4 mode is activated and traffic slows down...and the driver does not respond... I guess the system would have to pull over would have to get to the farthest right lane too... could be tricky. I am not sure how that would work.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
The answer is that it won't work. It's just hype and weasel words.
I cannot comment on demo vehicles and stagged video but; as I posted in another thread, I drove this week-end a brand new Audi A4 allroad 3.0 TDI of one of my friend with the Active Lane Assist, the Audi AutoPilot.
And Jesus, this is just suicidal !!! This thing is crap.
As soon as it is activated, the car went on the right continuous white marking, the one that vibrates to alert the driver that he is leaving the highway, and stays there for more than 5 sec, then it started to bounce back on the other direction, even crossing past the dash lane on the other side before going back right... and so on.
Even my friend had to admit that this is just a safety feature when you get asleep or distracted.
But as you need to drive anyway because of the way it (does not) handle the steering, you disconnect regularly because you are steering and sometimes it is enough to deactivate.
Bottom line: the A8 has to up their game in HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE ways if they want to even get close to what Tesla, even with their AP2, is doing today.
Holly crap, sorry but I have hard time to believe they could sell such a bad system.
You are absolutely right that Tesla's AP1 was greatly superior to Audi's and Merc's outgoing steering assistants.
Too bad the next-gen from Tesla went backwards in some ways and the next-gen from Audi is a completely different beast.
The A8 is the first use of the self-driving system Audi has developed for a decade. The old steering aids were completely unrelated.
Having really followed Audi a long time, their autonomous efforts have been a very long time coming. They have really taken their time and the Audi A8 is the first of that.
IMO failure would be really surprising.
zmarty
Member
lux_cars
Member
That has to be EU/Germany pricing. I can't imagine they'd increase base price in the US from $82,500 to $108,000, higher than even the S-Class starting price.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
You described a few problems with their fragmented implementation of L2 L3 L4. I agree with you that this won't work. You can't have partial L4.
What? Of course you can, I see no problems with the current implementation. I was just curious how it would work.
I think having a variety of features, some L4, some L3 and some L2 will be mainstream for most OEMs in the next few years. Including Tesla
The mode confusion is the interesting part. I am already wondering about that in the Level 3 implementation - will they have Level 2 auto-steering for example for other speed ranges/scenarios, and if so, how is the mode confusion handled.
Here is Audi talking about this generally (last year):
Here is Audi talking about this generally (last year):
mspohr
Well-Known Member
It needs to be at least as prominent as PNDR, and mode changes need to be designed to get the attention of a distracted driver, whether they are planned mode changes (i.e. 10 seconds for Audi's L3) or unplanned (i.e. a failure with one of the front wheels causes Audi's L3 system has to hand back immediately).
Would need something really obvious; significant visual changes to the content on any OLED screens.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
L4 has this (Wikipedia) definition
"4 High Automation the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene"
So... if the car requests driver intervention and the driver doesn't respond, what happens?
Does the car just keep on driving?... probably... but it might crash
Anything less than full autonomy requires the driver's attention and ability to take control so it just seems to me that L1-L4 is just counting angels.
"4 High Automation the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene"
So... if the car requests driver intervention and the driver doesn't respond, what happens?
Does the car just keep on driving?... probably... but it might crash
Anything less than full autonomy requires the driver's attention and ability to take control so it just seems to me that L1-L4 is just counting angels.
thegruf
Active Member
I'm all for new stuff coming along, but this endless hype of will be available next year/two years time is getting wearisome and a lot of it is aimed at Tesla as spoilers "dont buy a tesla today becasue we have something better tomorrrow"
I buy what is available today.
Today Tesla have the best driver assist system available in a regular car, and they have ambitious plans to develop it.
When I change my car I will re-assess what is available at that time.
Everything else is just noise.
and that Audi is undoubtedly well crafted but style wise it is banal in the extreme and does absolutley nothing for me. relic. yawn.
I buy what is available today.
Today Tesla have the best driver assist system available in a regular car, and they have ambitious plans to develop it.
When I change my car I will re-assess what is available at that time.
Everything else is just noise.
and that Audi is undoubtedly well crafted but style wise it is banal in the extreme and does absolutley nothing for me. relic. yawn.
All very good questions. We shall see.
That said, I already see distinct differences:
- With the Level 2 AP2 at this stage, paying attention means gripping the wheel with terror and virtually pushing the throttle at all times to be prepared for ghost steering and braking events. (Well, I exaggerate a little, but not too much - you have to really pay possibly attention more than when driving yourself.)
- With Level 3, as Audi has presented it to us anyway, you can read a book and in any scenario that doesn't startle you to action (i.e. wheel exploding), you have the, whatever, 8-15 seconds to reach. The car, very clearly put, will keep on driving and handling all driving situations, including stopping if need be or if you ignore it long enough. The type of paying attention this needs (assuming Audi does not fail to deliver) is distinctly different from current AP2.
- Now, with Level 4 limited to certain scenarios, the car must be able to act even if there is no human to intervene - but it is not required to handle all scenarios (only Level 5 is required to handle all scenarios). So if Audi ships a 37-81 mph Level 4 mode, my understanding is what it must be able to do, is stop the car safely on the side of the road (not in lane), if a driver is not available. It can ask the driver to intervene, but if they don't, then it must have a safe plan B. So yes, it would have to be able to safely drive in 0-37 mph, but it does not have to be able to do it forever, it can seek a safe way out.
That is debatable. AP2 is very unstable and e.g. Volvo's second-generation pilot is very stable. Tesla of course has the upgradeability potential. But it really isn't AP1 vs. the class of 2015 anymore, sorry to say for Tesla. The competition has gotten better and Tesla has, for the time being, gotten worse.
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