First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

[croman]

Isn't Tesla AP supposed to pull over safely when there is no driver response?

I believe it actually also just comes to a slow stop in its lane and throws on hazards (reported to come on at around 35mph).

But you are correct that Elon has said several times AP will pull over to the side of the road if a driver is unresponsive.

EDIT: Found this which shows what I've read.

http://jalopnik.com/watch-how-teslas-updated-autopilot-freaks-out-when-you-1787112548

 

[Bladerskb]

except that LIDAR is of limited use in the rain/poor visibility so immediately any system that relies on LIDAR has limitations, and if they are mounted that low they'll get covered in crud and be useless anyway, whereas radar will see through dirt.

Lidar today through post processing can see through snow/rain/dust.

Also audi radars and lidar have heating elements.

 

[mspohr]

Lidar today through post processing can see through snow/rain/dust.

Also audi radars and lidar have heating elements.

Like this?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@mspohr I would assume what's in the air, fine, what's on the car would have to melt first - hence the heating.

But again, there are several radars and vision too in the Audi...

 

[stopcrazypp]

I believe it actually also just comes to a slow stop in its lane and throws on hazards (reported to come on at around 35mph).

But you are correct that Elon has said several times AP will pull over to the side of the road if a driver is unresponsive.

EDIT: Found this which shows what I've read.

http://jalopnik.com/watch-how-teslas-updated-autopilot-freaks-out-when-you-1787112548

I remember the same claim in another discussion where someone said Elon made that claim about pulling to the side of the road, but when pressed for a video or actual quote, none was found (only links to third parties that made that claim). Would you happen to have a reference?

Logically it's not possible until Tesla has a mode for uninitiated lane changes. The only exception is if the car happens to be in the rightmost lane, but I don't think anyone found it would do that in that case either. It just comes to a stop in its own lane.

 

[Snuffysasa]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between L3 and partial L4 in practical terms? Wouldn't a highway-only L4 that requires take over by human to complete the journey be the same as a highway-only L3? The way I was thinking of it was that the real practical distinction between L3 and L4 is that L4 would be a FSD system and allow point to point autonomous driving without requiring driver take overs, whereas an L3 would only function for part of the journey. Am I thinking of this wrong?

Going from L2 to L3 is the biggest step.
L3 to L4 is much smaller.

The only key difference is, that L4 is guaranteed to pull over safely or get to safe state in event of some driving condition it can’t handle. In reality, most L4 systems will be way way more tolerant of the condioms in which disengagement’s are needed.

In theory you could have a L4 traffic jam pilot only.

You could also have a fully autonomous , point to point , system that can handle traffic lights, 4 way intersections , merging, roundabout etc, But is only L2.

The SAE level of autonomy does not tell full story of what a system is capable of or how advanced it is.

 

[Snuffysasa]

Well, partial L4 in the parking lot could park without a driver in the car, so there is that.

A partial high speed range L4 on highway of course has a somewhat more limited applicability because the driver can't just leave... But it would make high-speed travel less stressful because the car handle a larger range of events just by itself and even stop on the side by itself if you don't wake up...

That's the theory anyway... We shall see.

If the L4 system is not able to always reliability pull over safely in all situations where the driver doesn’t respond. Then the OEM would not release the system, or not label it as L4.

My understanding of L4 is that even if the human ignores commands to take over, the car can still disengage safely. L3 does not have that requirement (it relies on human taking over). An example is many L2 systems can come to a stop in its own lane if driver ignores alerts, however, L4 will be more stringent (car can safely pull over to side of road like a human).

L5 never asks the human to take over and can handle all situations a human can.
https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

The Audi system is kind of blurring the line since when it slows down to city speeds, it falls into an L3 mode. The question I guess is if for example traffic forces the system to fall into the speed range designated as L3, how does the car handle the situation?

It’s a good question, I think most likely it would work like this:
Driving in L4 mode , human is sleeping, traffic slows down to 20mph, the L4 system prompts the human to wake up and go back into L0 mode, once it is back in L0 mode the driver can turn on L3 mode....
If in the process of waiting for driver to respond to go into L0 mode, there is no response, the system would pull over before the reaching the traffic.

Perhaps (very likely) the traffic jam pilot feature is very close to L4 ready . Just struggles with low speed lane changes so can’t get to side of road.

Isn't Tesla AP supposed to pull over safely when there is no driver response?

Maybe, but thing is it is not guaranteed to do that. Tesla AP is only driver assist, so if it fails to pull over safely(which is likely) the driver is at fault.
In a L4 system if it fails to pull over safely(extremely unlikely) , the manufacturer is liable.

The main difference is the level of confidence, or reliability or performance of the ADS system. L4 is reliable enough for human to sleep, L2 is not(they would die)

 

[J1mbo]

Audi clearly don't need that massive sensor suite for self parking, TACC and lane keeping at slow speeds, but that is all they are selling with the A8. Strange.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If in the process of waiting for driver to respond to go into L0 mode, there is no response, the system would pull over before the reaching the traffic.

It would have to be able to pull over even within the traffic, AFAIK, because it can not always predict. So basically that Level 4 system must be able to handle all speeds down to 0 and back up, until it can exit safely. That's the theory anyway - we shall see.

Perhaps (very likely) the traffic jam pilot feature is very close to L4 ready . Just struggles with low speed lane changes so can’t get to side of road.

Audi's first L3 car probably mostly lacks the sensor suite to pull over safely to the degree the manufacturer is comfortable with. I think it does have enough sensors to do it, but not with such redundancy that Audi probably would want, those lane changes would rely basically on radar as the Lidar FoV and limited use of on-board cameras are not built for that use.

I believe the "Jack" prototype already does lane changes - and has done for years for press - and has a suite similar (or same?) as the new Audi A8, but for the latter non-prototype Audi chose a more conservative approach. For "Elaine" and the next generation, they seem to be adding to the suite and this will allow it to change lanes and that's important for Level 4 obviously.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Audi clearly don't need that massive sensor suite for self parking, TACC and lane keeping at slow speeds, but that is all they are selling with the A8. Strange.

No, they don't. They use (need?) that sensor suite for the other eventualities, like handling a truck perpendicular to the road, a moose, a cyclist, whatever the world throws at the car while it is doing Level 3. Because the car is in charge and the manufacturer takes full legal responsibility, it has to know stuff for sure...

It of course also helps in providing useful driver's aids and safety features in other situations, such as those radars seeing through cars in every direction and helping warn and plan for collisions. My 2010 Audi A8 already had four radars (in each corner).

 

[lux_cars]

Audi says 2019 A8's Level 3 self-driving tech capable of doubling speed - Roadshow

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Audi says 2019 A8's Level 3 self-driving tech capable of doubling speed - Roadshow

I wonder if they are talking about upping the surrent A8 system to faster speed ranges (quite possible, why not) or about the future Level 4 system...

This also kind of answers our questions about faster speeds...

The system's zFAS brain won't just need to work more quickly, it will also need different road conditions and additional programming. Mertens: "It is crucial [to have] lane change -- automatic lane change -- and having a shoulder [lane]. And with that, we and the technology are able to park the car safely if the driver doesn't respond." ... To operate at the higher speeds Mertens is envisioning, the car will need to be able to safely make its way over to a shoulder lane and stop entirely on its own.

Being able to stop on the curb...

 

[Snuffysasa]

Audi clearly don't need that massive sensor suite for self parking, TACC and lane keeping at slow speeds, but that is all they are selling with the A8. Strange.

I mean you are right, like we imagine Audi has extra sensors for future updates and for future capabilities.

But how do you know that Audi doesn't need all those sensors for self driving for TACC and lane keeping at slow speeds? There are currently no other systems out there that can self drive, tacc and lane keeping at those speeds.

It would have to be able to pull over even within the traffic, AFAIK, because it can not always predict. So basically that Level 4 system must be able to handle all speeds down to 0 and back up, until it can exit safely. That's the theory anyway - we shall see.

Audi's first L3 car probably mostly lacks the sensor suite to pull over safely to the degree the manufacturer is comfortable with. I think it does have enough sensors to do it, but not with such redundancy that Audi probably would want, those lane changes would rely basically on radar as the Lidar FoV and limited use of on-board cameras are not built for that use.

I believe the "Jack" prototype already does lane changes - and has done for years for press - and has a suite similar (or same?) as the new Audi A8, but for the latter non-prototype Audi chose a more conservative approach. For "Elaine" and the next generation, they seem to be adding to the suite and this will allow it to change lanes and that's important for Level 4 obviously.

I wonder if they are talking about upping the surrent A8 system to faster speed ranges (quite possible, why not) or about the future Level 4 system...

This also kind of answers our questions about faster speeds...

Being able to stop on the curb...

Yes exactly, in order for Audi to call the system a L4 system it would need to be able to reliably predict when traffic slows down and pull over even when traffic does slow down.

There is no "we shall see."

 

[Super_Popular]

Never liked Audi's.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

There is no "we shall see."

We shall see...

 

[lunitiks]

 

[Bladerskb]

If the L4 system is not able to always reliability pull over safely in all situations where the driver doesn’t respond. Then the OEM would not release the system, or not label it as L4.


It’s a good question, I think most likely it would work like this:
Driving in L4 mode , human is sleeping, traffic slows down to 20mph, the L4 system prompts the human to wake up and go back into L0 mode, once it is back in L0 mode the driver can turn on L3 mode....
If in the process of waiting for driver to respond to go into L0 mode, there is no response, the system would pull over before the reaching the traffic.

So if Audi ships a 37-81 mph Level 4 mode, my understanding is what it must be able to do, is stop the car safely on the side of the road (not in lane), if a driver is not available. It can ask the driver to intervene, but if they don't, then it must have a safe plan B. So yes, it would have to be able to safely drive in 0-37 mph, but it does not have to be able to do it forever, it can seek a safe way out.

There are a few assumptions that Audi L4 37mph+ would imply it can handle lane change situations in slow moving traffic.
This actually very unlikely, because if it were then there would be no reason to limit the L4 system to 37 mph+.

You also have to remember that stopping on the freeway and putting on the hazards in 20 mph traffic (traffic jam) is not dangerous compared to stopping with 50 mph traffic zipping by.

Its very likely that audi's l4 can't manage being on one side of a 6 lane highway and changing 5 lanes to get to the other side in-order to reach the shoulder during traffic jam. Or when in a 4 lane highway and stuck in the left 2 lanes going 5 mph and the other 2 right lane is going 50+ mph (vice versa).

Mobileye's CTO Amnon Shashua talked about this (driving policy) by illustrating the double lane merge and the negotiation required for traffic jam lane change maneuvering and squeezing in.

Also a 37+ limit means it might not be able to do highway interchange. because ramps slows you down way under 37 mph.

34m20s

 

[AnxietyRanger]

There are a few assumptions that Audi L4 37mph+ would imply it can handle lane change situations in slow moving traffic.
This actually very unlikely, because if it were then there would be no reason to limit the L4 system to 37 mph+.

You also have to remember that stopping on the freeway and putting on the hazards in 20 mph traffic (traffic jam) is not dangerous compared to stopping with 50 mph traffic zipping by.

Its very likely that audi's l4 can't manage being on one side of a 6 lane highway and changing 5 lanes to get to the other side in-order to reach the shoulder during traffic jam. Or when in a 4 lane highway and stuck in the left 2 lanes going 5 mph and the other 2 right lane is going 50+ mph (vice versa).

I still think Level 4 will need lane change ability to find the curb. Whether or not that requires it to drive on the right side all the time, who knows...

See:

The system's zFAS brain won't just need to work more quickly, it will also need different road conditions and additional programming. Mertens: "It is crucial [to have] lane change -- automatic lane change -- and having a shoulder [lane]. And with that, we and the technology are able to park the car safely if the driver doesn't respond." ... To operate at the higher speeds Mertens is envisioning, the car will need to be able to safely make its way over to a shoulder lane and stop entirely on its own.

That said, your theory that dropping from Level 4 to under 37+ mph and then stopping in lane is noted. I still consider that dangerous, though, if the driver is sleeping... what if the road clears and your car is stopped on the left lane of the autobahn...

We shall see.

Also a 37+ limit means it might not be able to do highway interchange. because ramps slows you down way under 37 mph.

Sure.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

one of the difference between Tesla and someone like Audi is that Audi is not late with their promises and neither do they overpromise.
They said L3 Traffic Jam Pilot in 2017 and here it is. They are also saying L4 Highway Full Speed Pilot and AI ZONE (L4 Parking Lots) in 2019/2020 and i actually believe them.

They showed their concept Elaine in the auto show just days ago.

- has much more advanced zFAS controller than the one used in A8's Traffic Jam Pilot.
- has two forward lidar
- (probably uses mobileye eyeq4 which goes into prod end of 2017)

From Audi



Also AI Zone isn't just some concept. They've been working on it for some time!

18 mins

This is great and all if you can shell out for a8. I can do a4. When will Audi reach a4 with their autonomy? Also, if you but a8 with level 3 , will it get more features or expanded lvl3 beyond traffic? This is why I'm buying Tesla, they might be late but I won't have to buy another car to go from level 3 to level 3.1.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I remember the same claim in another discussion where someone said Elon made that claim about pulling to the side of the road, but when pressed for a video or actual quote, none was found (only links to third parties that made that claim). Would you happen to have a reference?

Logically it's not possible until Tesla has a mode for uninitiated lane changes. The only exception is if the car happens to be in the rightmost lane, but I don't think anyone found it would do that in that case either. It just comes to a stop in its own lane.

A lot of articles have repeated this claim, perhaps it originated from this story: Tesla Autopilot Drives an Impaired Man to the Nearest Hospital, Saving His Life or similar.

I have seen no evidece that Tesla's or Elon's statements or in fact ground reality would have aligned with this claim, though. I guess we can't dismiss Tesla saying this somewhere, but if so, it probably has been in a forward-looking manner.

I think this may be false info getting repeated...