First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

[Reciprocity]

The only numbers you need to know.. Audi A8/S8 sales down over 30% in the US for 2016 going back to 2013, about when the Model S started to become more available:

Audi A8 / S8 US car sales figures

We are only talking about 6300 down to 4100 cars per year, but at the same time the Model S went from just 2650 in 2012 to nearly 29,000 in 2016:

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

Audi is stuck in the past and this is just another example of how wrong they are about the future of cars.

A4 still does well, but that will end soon with the model 3. I feel bad for Audi, they seem to be a decent little brother to BMW and Daimler, but sadly they are all lost causes at this point. I assume VW will end up owning them all as they go bankrupt over the next few years. Of course VW will also be much smaller and weakened by legacy thinking, but if one has to survive, I am going to go with the biggest.

 

[lunitiks]

Audi is stuck in the past and this is just another example of how wrong they are about the future of cars.

What exactly do you mean? They're undeniably first to market with L3 autonomy

 

[Reciprocity]

What exactly do you mean? They're undeniably first to market with L3 autonomy

Did I miss something, Is the A8 a long range all electric car? This is a Tesla forum and people here generally think the future is EV and L4-L5 autonomy.

mmmm ok.. L3 under extremely rigid circumstances. And it does not exist yet. Not really. Can you buy that car? It doesnt exist until you can actually buy it and it doesn't matter if its so ridiculously restricted. I could do that today with AP in stop and go traffic under 40mph. I have seen videos of people sleeping in their AP1 Tesla's from 2 years ago. I am sure if Tesla cared, they would just call AP level 3 and restrict it to 39mph, but that would be just as silly as this lol fest.

At the end of the day.. no one wants what Audi is selling. Now that Model X is full production and Model 3 is coming, I suspect that Audi will lose about 1/4-1/3 of its sales next year alone and is only because they can only make so many S3X cars and the Y is not out yet. The writing is on the wall.

 

[malcolm]

Watched the video as linked in the OP.

Er....... level 3....what exactly? Pothole detection? Summer and Winter fragrances for the Air Con?

ETA: The new Audi A8 moves upmarket and gains artificial intelligence

At speeds of up to 37.3 miles per hour, the Audi AI traffic jam pilot takes control of starting, accelerating, steering and braking duties, allowing the driver to perform other tasks not related to driving... like watching the on-board TV, says Audi

"watching the on-board TV, says Audi"

"Really," says me "in a Level 3 car? You won't be watching for long"

The AI system will presumably learn the driver's habits, likes, dislikes, and regular routes, and will make recommendations based on all that data.

It's your plastic pal who's fun to be with

 

[lunitiks]

I could do that today with AP in stop and go traffic under 40mph. I have seen videos of people sleeping in their AP1 Tesla's from 2 years ago.

Seems you're missing the point. AP is L2 by design: You're not supposed to take your eyes off the road. Sure you *can*, endangering others and yourself. But you're not supposed to -- you would be a complete moron.

Audi is bringing a system that's L3 by design: For the first time responsibility for the actual driving is being transfered to the manufacturer. You're not supposed to drive or monitor the driving.

BTW I agree with you that it's not real until it's real. In theory Tesla could beat them if the HW is not a limiting factor

 

[J1mbo]

So, as an L3 car, the Audi will give you plenty of warning to take over before it runs a red light or tries to drive down a new cycle lane that's not on the map yet.

 

[Reciprocity]

BTW I agree with you that it's not real until it's real. In theory Tesla could beat them if the HW is not a limiting factor

Tesla could beat them even if the HW is limiting. if 20% of the 100,000 HW2 cars need a processing upgrade (only need to upgrade those who paid for FSD), its a couple of hours in a service shop. If you think the lack of Lidar is the issue, Lidar has is benefits but also has its issues so I highly doubt that will be what stops Tesla. Humans dont need lasers to drive and Vision+Radar should be plenty for L3. It is also possible they have left room and allowed for Lidar, but I just dont see them going that direction.

 

[BLKTSLA]

Seems you're missing the point. AP is L2 by design: You're not supposed to take your eyes off the road. Sure you *can*, endangering others and yourself. But you're not supposed to -- you would be a complete moron.

Audi is bringing a system that's L3 by design: For the first time responsibility for the actual driving is being transfered to the manufacturer. You're not supposed to drive or monitor the driving.

BTW I agree with you that it's not real until it's real. In theory Tesla could beat them if the HW is not a limiting factor

Just an FYI for all...AP was designed to be Level 3 but anything over Level 2 requires state approvals AFAIK, so Tesla opted for L2 designation to allow it to be released now with features that are software limited and blur the lines between 2/3. Thats what has prevented the auto-lane change and taking exits (the REAL 8.1)...on top of the MobileEye setback as well. Remember the nags and such were all implemented after accidents/misuse of the system, had those events not occurred there would be less nags and probably more features to put it on par with L3...

So, as an L3 car, the Audi will give you plenty of warning to take over before it runs a red light or tries to drive down a new cycle lane that's not on the map yet.

Thats the part that is unclear to me and what makes the designation of L3 blurry IMO. If what I understand is accurate, Audi A8 will completely drive itself under 37mph but anything above that it will safely transfer control to the driver...so in the use case you are in a traffic jam that has varying speeds all under 37mph, and when the jam clears and resumes to 55+ mph you will be prompted to take control or the car will pull over? or keep going 37mph until you take control?

 

[Bladerskb]

As far as the Level 3 autonomy all I am reading and seeing is based on Traffic-Jam Pilot and up to 37mph....AP1 for sure but possibly AP2 can already do this. I can completely check out with AP1 in traffic up to 45mph, I don't even get he nag when its 40mph or below and can go from a complete stop to start again, so not sure this is a leap forward.

AP1 and AP2 are not L3. While they work great in a highway, they aren't L3. This is cool but I also think AP2 will blow it out of the water in 6 months. L3 on a highway is easy. Tesla should deliver it ASAP as a full speed L3 to take the wind out of Audi's speed limited system. They just need to integrate the additional cameras and it will be L3 (set and forget and it will auto lane change -- i.e. EAP).

I could do that today with AP in stop and go traffic under 40mph. I have seen videos of people sleeping in their AP1 Tesla's from 2 years ago. I am sure if Tesla cared, they would just call AP level 3 and restrict it to 39mph, but that would be just as silly as this lol fest.

Even at 37mph, a l2 isn't comparable to a l3.

There are thousands of these stories and close encounters of autopilot under 40 mph on the highway to prove my point.

this for example is kinda my pointAP2 minor accident

or this: /r/teslamotors/comments/475m46/my_autopilot_had_an_accident/

or this

or this

Or tesla autopilot that does this on a routine basis?

...not seeing and ramming the car in front:

RAW: Footage of Tesla car crash in China reportedly due to autopilot failure

or hitting the side of the road, hitting barriers, cones, etc:

Tesla Crashes After Autopilot Fails To Detect Lane Shift!

or taking unwanted exits? hitting merging cars? not letting cars merge? etc.

L3 is not easy and tesla already said that that EAP was a driver assistance that drivers are to be in control and monitoring at all times. I think alot of people will be disappointed when they discover that EAP is even more dangerous than ap1 features if tesla implement eap the way i think the y will.

L3 is not easy, as a l3 system cannot disengage without giving driver appropriate time (10-15 seconds).

 

[lunitiks]

Just an FYI for all...AP was designed to be Level 3 but anything over Level 2 requires state approvals AFAIK, so Tesla opted for L2 designation to allow it to be released now

 

[Reciprocity]

Even at 37mph, a l2 isn't comparable to a l3.

There are thousands of these stories and close encounters of autopilot under 40 mph on the highway to prove my point.

this for example is kinda my pointAP2 minor accident

or this: /r/teslamotors/comments/475m46/my_autopilot_had_an_accident/

or this

or this

Or tesla autopilot that does this on a routine basis?

...not seeing and ramming the car in front:

RAW: Footage of Tesla car crash in China reportedly due to autopilot failure

or hitting the side of the road, hitting barriers, cones, etc:

Tesla Crashes After Autopilot Fails To Detect Lane Shift!

or taking unwanted exits? hitting merging cars? not letting cars merge? etc.

L3 is not easy and tesla already said that that EAP was a driver assistance that drivers are to be in control and monitoring at all times. I think alot of people will be disappointed when they discover that EAP is even more dangerous than ap1 features if tesla implement eap the way i think the y will.

L3 is not easy, as a l3 system cannot disengage without giving driver appropriate time (10-15 seconds).

Oh bleakerslab is at it again. Why dont you go buy an Audi and leave us alone. Or at least realize that I dont even need to read your posts before I respond because I know what will get you all fired up. My guess is that you will be a model 3 owner soon, so congratulations.

 

[Spidy]

 

[lunitiks]

Yeah that's not favorable for Audi

 

[dmode]

I got excited after reading the article for a moment. Only to realize that this is basically AP1 from 2 years back without nagging. I have AP2 and in stop and go traffic, I pretty much fiddle with my phone and write email, texts, facebook check-ins, snapchat stories and what not. Only have to hold the steering every few minutes because of the annoying nagging. The article also states that Audi will alert you in case you need to take over. Not much different from what AP1 has been doing for a while. I also don't believe they will be able to release this in the US without "hands on the wheel" capabilities.

 

[lunitiks]

this is basically AP1 from 2 years back without nagging

PELISE do some research on SAEs levels of automation.

L3 is not "ap1 without nagging".
It's more like "ap1 without accountability"

 

[BLKTSLA]

@Bladerskb - Unless you work for Audi R&D...or maybe marketing, there is no way you can confidently use the videos you posted which all show exceptional use cases for crashes (e.g. cars half in lane, construction zones, etc.) and say that Audi and L3 would not have faired the same or marginally better or worse.

@lunitiks - My sources are members of the autopilot team that actually built the system, so my information and sources are quite credible, but funny meme either way.

 

[lunitiks]

@lunitiks - My sources are members of the autopilot team that actually built the system

People building Teslas Autopilot sw has told you that Tesla has purposely handicapped it to L2?
Or purposely set L2 features as their goal instead of L3?
All because of government?

 

[Tam]

...Oh bleakerslab is at it again...

Although I am very much enjoying my AP2 but I don't mind being reminded that AP2 can get me into trouble. It's informative so I won't get into trouble.

It's a good compilation of AP faults that every AP owners should watch before taking ownership of the car.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here... but, I'm not sure I quite see the real breakthrough with the level-3 autonomy thing here.

The car has LiDAR, plus one forward facing camera and radars... probably everywhere. Thus, it can make itself start and stop within a traffic jam, up to a maximum speed of 37mph. So, is the breakthrough here is that the manufacturer says you don't need to actually look at the car in front if you don't want to... but it won't work until 2019, and initially only in Germany?

Presumably only in motorway traffic jams too... up to 37 mph means you could enable it on city roads, streets, local suburban roads etc... so they must lock it to certain places. I'm not sure how useful it'll be to have this, eventually, in 2019.


Aside from that, the car sounds great - and the active suspension and all the other tech is outstanding. Personally, I'm not sure about its aesthetic, a bit business like for me perhaps.

(from Top Gear's news site):

And right off the bat, let us get to the not-so-small matter of frickin’ LASERS. Audi is debuting its AI traffic jam pilot for its S-Class rival, which allows the A8 to drive, on its own, in slow-moving traffic at up to 37.3mph. Accelerating, braking, steering… the lot. A front camera, radar sensors and those pesky lasers allow the car to scan its surroundings.

A Tesla (or Volvo XC90, BMW 5-Series etc…) can pretty much drive itself in traffic, but you have to monitor it. In the Audi you just press a button, and where applicable, the new A8 will allow you to indulge in whatever it is you do in a car when not actually driving. Sweating nervously and eyeballing the car in front, no doubt. This is the difference between level two and level three autonomy, fact fans. Pity you can’t get it right away, though. Audi says law-permitting, the system will be available in Germany in 2019.​

The breakthrough is really about the car owning responsibility for the driving while that system is engaged. I wouldn't really call it a breakthrough. It's certainly a technical achievement and the race is on to be the first.

There are some companies that are skipping Level 3 altogether because of the weird hand off thing.

Tesla is clearly aiming for it, and Audi is with this one. Volvo is testing it, but not sure when they'll release to the general public.

As a current HW1 Tesla owner I'm trying to decide if I'll hold off on ever upgrading unless the new one does Level 3 or better when I buy it. I don't think I really care if a Level 2 system is better. It's really the hand off of responsibility that matters. 37mph might be a bit low, but heck I live in the Seattle area. I'm lucky to see speeds higher than it.

Traffic was so slow yesterday that I was passing cars on the shoulder with my Electric assist bike. I was doing about 30 and traffic was doing 25.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The only numbers you need to know.. Audi A8/S8 sales down over 30% in the US for 2016 going back to 2013, about when the Model S started to become more available:

Audi A8 / S8 US car sales figures

We are only talking about 6300 down to 4100 cars per year, but at the same time the Model S went from just 2650 in 2012 to nearly 29,000 in 2016:

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

Audi is stuck in the past and this is just another example of how wrong they are about the future of cars.

A4 still does well, but that will end soon with the model 3. I feel bad for Audi, they seem to be a decent little brother to BMW and Daimler, but sadly they are all lost causes at this point. I assume VW will end up owning them all as they go bankrupt over the next few years. Of course VW will also be much smaller and weakened by legacy thinking, but if one has to survive, I am going to go with the biggest.

I'm really confused.

VW owns Audi, and Porsche.

VW is forced to go electric.

There are at least a couple Audi electric Vehicles slatted for 2018/2019 time frame.

In all likelihood Audi/VW will be one of the most serious competitors for Tesla. No one else has the charging infrastructure that's needed to convince people to buy the cars.

Competition is going to be pretty fierce and I look forwards to it.