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First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

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Luckily, I don't drive with an SAE engineer in the passenger seat, so SAE classifications do not apply to me. Cars perform as they perform. Naming them or spec'g them, or publishing brochures is not actually a function, it called marketing.

Are you 100% sure that keeping the driver in the correct position for airbag and crumple zones is a stupid idea? I'm not so sure. Somebody laying down in the back seat is going to get wadded up feet first against the windshield with at least broken legs as they slip under a harness with no submarine belt.

But, the SAE class is what transfers responsibility. Responsibility is the #1 thing that applies when driving. That you take responsibility for your actions while you drive.

What this car does is it allows you to transfer that responsibility to the car while in certain situations. Those situations are certainly limited, but I think those of us in congested areas would find it a must have after using it. In fact those that use it will likely crave for more as they'll be tired of having to take over when asked.

That's why it needs regulatory approval, and this comparison is likely going to be pointless in some countries as L3 won't be approved for a long time if ever in those areas. So a better comparison would be L2, but the Cadillac is so fundamentally different in one massive regard that if it works well it's the default winner. Texting is so massively dangerous that I like the idea of a car that makes sure the driver is really paying attention. Not just holding the steering wheel in one hand while texting in another completely trusting an L2 system.

As to being in the right position for a crash? With L3 systems and beyond the driver won't be. But, the reduction in crashes will so massively offset the added risk that it's worth it.
 
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But, the SAE class is what transfers responsibility. Responsibility is the #1 thing that applies when driving. That you take responsibility for your actions while you drive.

What this car does is it allows you to transfer that responsibility to the car while in certain situations. Those situations are certainly limited, but I think those of us in congested areas would find it a must have after using it. In fact those that use it will likely crave for more as they'll be tired of having to take over when asked.

That's why it needs regulatory approval, and this comparison is likely going to be pointless in some countries as L3 won't be approved for a long time if ever in those areas. So a better comparison would be L2, but the Cadillac is so fundamentally different in one massive regard that if it works well it's the default winner. Texting is so massively dangerous that I like the idea of a car that makes sure the driver is really paying attention. Not just holding the steering wheel in one hand while texting in another completely trusting an L2 system.

As to being in the right position for a crash? With L3 systems and beyond the driver won't be. But, the reduction in crashes will so massively offset the added risk that it's worth it.

Sadly, the #1 reason people want autonomy right now is to increase the amount texting and phone calls that can be made per mile.

Nobody will say it, but it's the truth. Our phones own us. We no longer own phones. Next comes the cars.

What is laughable is many folk believe they are so important that 30 minutes without social media will damage the universe. Some folk cannot use the toilet without a cellphone today. Seriously.
 
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....so what's Level 5 ? Is that when the car takes over the driver?

Actually, scrub that. That's just the usual petrol-head/gass-hole/watt-nut stuff.

So in your Audi World, Level 5 is Level 4 with the following additions: the car goes to work, pays for itself, sets the family rules, and mows the lawn on the weekends?

There's no point using my world. Lets use the SAE world which USDOT and NHTSA and law makers use.

https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

"The full-time performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver"

Level 5 is level 4 without any operating domain limits.

BTW - How could Audi be L2 or higher if it cannot control throttle/braking at the speed limit of the road it's on? Driving 37 mph in a 75 mph is not only unsafe, it's not really in control of the throttle.


There is no necessity to meet a specific speed. There are operating domains that the SAE even gives as examples of level 3 and Level 4 and that includes traffic jam. Take a look at the link.

"Driving mode is a type of driving scenario with characteristic dynamic driving task requirements (e.g., expressway merging, high speed cruising, low speed traffic jam, closed-campus operations, etc.)."

Infact Audi is working on a L4 Parking Lot Pilot that they are going to release in 2018/2019.

18 mins

 
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I read through this entire thread and there is lots of conflicting information. The problem is that the Audi is just a press release about some vaporware car which might be available "real soon now" (or maybe a few years). You can argue a lot about what's in a press release (or press reveal) but until you can actually buy the car and test it, it's all just wild speculation.
I put this down to just another "Tesla killer" which is really just a paper tiger. When the car is actually available to buy and to test, then we can have a real discussion. Until then, it looks like my two year old Tesla can do more than this press release.

whats more wild speculation and vaporware than auto pilot 2 which is supposedly a "L5 fully self driving car".

come on brah, don't be a hypocrite.
 
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...

There is no necessity to meet a specific speed. There are operating domains that the SAE even gives as examples of level 3 and Level 4 and that includes traffic jam.

...

Hence why you should not worry about L1/L2/L3/L4 classes.

If you call the Cadillac L0, does it matter to the driver?

If your autosteering and AEB doesn't work at highway speeds inside the geomapped domain of the car, then you worry even if you call it L6+ Type R.

ACC/AEB in existing cars is fine for most folk in traffic jams as a safety system. Adding the ability to take a nap or watch midget wrestling in traffic is probably not a safety system.
 
SAE will probably revise their classifications at some point.

It makes more sense to isolate features. Example:

Dx = Driver restriction. D0 = Hands on wheel. D1 = Facing forward. D2 = Seat occupied. D3 = No driver.
Sx = Speed restriction. S0 = <40kmh S1<80kmh S2<120kmh S3<150kmh S4<200kmh S5=unlimited
Ex = Environment restriction. E0 = Daytime, Summer, Dry. E1 = 24hr, dry. E2 = Fog and Rain. E3 = Snow and ice.
Rx = Road restriction. R0 = Geomapped. R1 = Controlled Access. R2 = Cross traffic is controlled by signs/lights. R3 = Public roads. R4 = All Terrain.

So a normal car would be nothing.

Individual features would be rated:

AEB
ACC
AutoSteering

ex

AEB - D2 S2 E3 R4
ACC - D2 S3 E3 R2
AS - D0 S0 E2 R1

Probably re-order it as REDS so it's easy to remember. "What's it's REDS for the steering?"

Or hypothetically, the basic REDS on a Cadillac is 0313.
 
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Sadly, the #1 reason people want autonomy right now is to increase the amount texting and phone calls that can be made per mile.

Nobody will say it, but it's the truth. Our phones own us. We no longer own phones. Next comes the cars.

What is laughable is many folk believe they are so important that 30 minutes without social media will damage the universe. Some folk cannot use the toilet without a cellphone today. Seriously.

That's the truth.

We have to use technology to fight how technology has changed us. Studies have already shown that millennials have a much lower desire for cars than the generation before. They don't want cars because that would get in the way of their time spent with their phones.

But, there isn't just one reason why. Everyone has their number one reason.

My #1 reason is that I have anxiety when it comes to driving. Now, it's not a serious level anxiety. It doesn't really stop me if I really want to go somewhere. It's not driving itself that I have anxiety about. It's really a social anxiety, and driving is a social activity.

So I see autonomous driving as freeing myself from that.

I also see autonomous driving as an acceptance that there are just too many people these days. We simply can't freely get from one area to another area like we used to be able to. The only place I could do that was in Europe. Where each day I could decide where I wanted to go, and jump on a train to go there.

Autonomous driving is the only way to increase the efficiency of our roadway.

Plus we need to have a solution for old people. Everyday I see a very old driver causing other people to do crazy things. That old driver likely won't get into an accident, but he'll cause 2 or three just on his way to the grocery store.
 
For the car to request that you stay in the designed protection zone, and keep your head up once and awhile, but no driver intervention required makes it sort of a grey area. You don't have to control the operation of the car, but it wants you to stay in a safe position.

There's no grey area because the car isn't L3. if something happens, it will hand over the car to you instantly. A L3 on the other hand CAN'T hand over the car to you instantly. How is it that you can't understand?

Now if GM came out and said their cars also monitors the environment even though its a L2 then that would be different.

Read L3. It requires the car control the speed/braking/steering with the expectation that the human will intervene if requested. 37 mph in a 75 mph zone is not controlling the speed. If traffic on that permitted road speeds up, a human must respond.

Dynamic driving task includes the operational (steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway)

Acceleration not "control the speed". The same way you accelerate, brake, steering in a parking lot or a college campus.

The Cadillac system will control the speed/braking/steering without human intervention on permitted roads, but if the human does not respond to a request, it will safely stop the car and call for help. Without human intervention. Look at L4 Fallback.

I wouldn't call that a L4 fallback seeing as the audi L3 does exactly the same thing.
Infact L4 fallback isn't stopping in your lane because that would be dangerous in most cases.

Matter of fact the development Audi L3 the A8 is built on pulls off to the side of the road when the driver isn't responding.



All you have to do is sit there, it cannot and does not demand you take any action concerning dynamic car control if you operating in a covered driving mode.

So perhaps you could call it L2, and Cadillac probably does. But what does it REALLY do? Time will tell, but it sure sounds like an extremely advanced version of the L2 definition.

It can be an advanced L2 just like EAP or FSD features can be an advanced L2. but still stuck in L2 level.
 
Luckily, I don't drive with an SAE engineer in the passenger seat, so SAE classifications do not apply to me. Cars perform as they perform. Naming them or spec'g them, or publishing brochures is not actually a function, it called marketing.

Are you 100% sure that keeping the driver in the correct position for airbag and crumple zones is a stupid idea? I'm not so sure. Somebody laying down in the back seat is going to get wadded up feet first against the windshield with at least broken legs as they slip under a harness with no submarine belt.

SAE classifications does apply to everyone because they will be required by LAW to label every car by the number of their Level. Each customer will have to be informed of the autonomous capabilities and levels.

Naming them and Specing them IS a function. A high speed L3 car like the new nissan car coming in 2018 is superior to a low speed traffic jam L3 car like Audi a8


Hence why you should not worry about L1/L2/L3/L4 classes.

If you call the Cadillac L0, does it matter to the driver?

Again it matters because almost all pending legislation and current legislation requires manufacturers to put a large label of SAE classification on the cars they are selling.

SAE classification provides a standard so everyone isn't making up their own levels and things.

SAE will probably revise their classifications at some point.

It makes more sense to isolate features. Example:

No it won't, the guidelines and rules are a done deal. many legislation have and are already using it.
get over it. its done. Supercruise is the first true L2 and Audi a8 is a L3 self driving car.

Isolating the features would only make things confusing to customers. The 5 levels tells the customers exactly and most importantly when they need to know. Do i need to pay attention or not and do i need to be ready to take control at some point. The rest can be described in cars manual on the exact operations and feature set of the cars.

Because no car will have the exact same feature. Some can park in parking lots, others have to park on the side of the street when you get to your destination, some when go through drive-thru, others cant.

There are so many different feature configurations, you can't categorize all of them,

This is simple...

Level 3 = self driving with operation limits (location, weather, etc) and human fallback.
Level 4 = full self driving with operation limits (location, weather, etc).
Level 5 = full self driving with no limits.
 
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SAE classifications does apply to everyone because they will be required by LAW to label every car by the number of their Level. Each customer will have to be informed of the autonomous capabilities and levels.

Naming them and Specing them IS a function. A high speed L3 car like the new nissan car coming in 2018 is superior to a low speed traffic jam L3 car like Audi a8




Again it matters because almost all pending legislation and current legislation requires manufacturers to put a large label of SAE classification on the cars they are selling.

SAE classification provides a standard so everyone isn't making up their own levels and things.



No it won't, the guidelines and rules are a done deal. many legislation have and are already using it.
get over it. its done. Supercruise is the first true L2 and Audi a8 is a L3 self driving car.

Isolating the features would only make things confusing to customers. The 5 levels tells the customers exactly and most importantly when they need to know. Do i need to pay attention or not and do i need to be ready to take control at some point. The rest can be described in cars manual on the exact operations and feature set of the cars.

Because no car will have the exact same feature. Some can park in parking lots, others have to park on the side of the street when you get to your destination, some when go through drive-thru, others cant.

There are so many different feature configurations, you can't categorize all of them,

This is simple...

Level 3 = self driving with operation limits (location, weather, etc) and human fallback.
Level 4 = full self driving with operation limits (location, weather, etc).
Level 5 = full self driving with no limits.

L3 = has what limits? No freeway speeds? No rain? No nighttime? No dusk or dawn sun in eyes?
L4 = Does great in snowstorms?

Most SAE/ISO/ANSI/IGES/ETC specs have revisions. That's why they call them standards, because they are never standard. ;)
 
I have always felt the best ways to describe the different levels are:

Level 2 = hands off (you can just/you must watch it)
Level 3 = eyes off (you can read)
Level 4 = mind off (you can sleep)
Level 5 = steering wheel off (wheel or you don't even have to be in the car)

L4 in the parking lot, L3 around town and L2 elsewhere... a different Level of automation depending on the task... what could possibly go wrong?

This is certainly a genuine sphere of problems.

In case you are genuinely interested, here is a bit of Audi talking mode confusion:

7zCDa1k.jpg


Also here is how "Jack" shows (as a green line around the dash) when it is responsible:

 
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Great discussion, but none of you address my major concern - when can I join the Tesla Self-Driving Network where my car autonomously hails paying ride shares to generate income either during the night when I'm sleeping or day when I'm at work? Just woke up from a nap so not sure if I imagined this or it is real...
 
Great discussion, but none of you address my major concern - when can I join the Tesla Self-Driving Network where my car autonomously hails paying ride shares to generate income either during the night when I'm sleeping or day when I'm at work? Just woke up from a nap so not sure if I imagined this or it is real...
Tesla might release details on how they plan to do such a network this year, but those will all just be planning stages. The cars have to be made driverless capable first for public release (not happening this year), and your local jurisdiction must allow it. Then we might also get to the same taxi regulation battles that Uber and Lyft had gone through (will it be regulated as a car sharing service or a taxi service with a robotic "driver").

Insurance will also be a sticky matter. Elon has voiced he does not intend to cover the insurance for the car in general for FSD mode, but that may be different if operating as part of the network. The bit to be concerned about is when the car is traveling enroute. Uber used to not cover that part (since changed after a couple incidents), and personal insurance didn't either since it was commercial use. Lots of details to worry about.
 
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Great discussion, but none of you address my major concern - when can I join the Tesla Self-Driving Network where my car autonomously hails paying ride shares to generate income either during the night when I'm sleeping or day when I'm at work? Just woke up from a nap so not sure if I imagined this or it is real...

Well, according to Elon's January 23rd tweet FSD is coming in 5 days max, so any day now, any day now...

(On a more serious note: Interesting to see what FSD requiring features will actually appear in 5 days max.)
 
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L3 = has what limits? No freeway speeds? No rain? No nighttime? No dusk or dawn sun in eyes?
L4 = Does great in snowstorms?

Most SAE/ISO/ANSI/IGES/ETC specs have revisions. That's why they call them standards, because they are never standard. ;)

Levels 2, 3 and 4 by definition have manufacturer defined limits, where they can operate at those levels. The rest of the time the driver is responsible.

Level 5 can ship without a steering wheel and thus can only be driven within its specs, so basically only Level 5 is where there are "no" limits.

I'm sure there can be revisions to the standards as well (and definitely will be), but just outlining IMO the quite clear levels as they currently stand. They do cover a lot of ground already.
 
Looks like Audi showed the traffic jam pilot to a few journalists.

3:00

1:30
Compared to what Tesla's AP1 or AP2 does, I don't see anything beyond adaptive cruise control and lane keeping.
The Audi system has also limits:
- 37 mph max
- divided highway only (no oncoming traffic)
- adjacent lanes must be jammed up also (yes, hard to believe)
- no lane change

Seems like typical Audi. Their press releases are much better than the actual cars.
 
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