First Long(ish) Trip In MS60. Accident Avoided!

[Chopr147]

Whew! That makes me feel better.

I put on less than 10k (barely) from when I got it in late August.

After being a TMC member for a while before leasing my S, I knew I would have to go with the 15k mile per year lease. Of course I'm glad I did. 4 months into ownership and i'm almost at 8000 miles
I'll dial it back tomorrow

 

[somnambule]

Are there ANY features Tesla could remove from your car that would upset you? Would you be ok if the car's acceleration were halved? or the touchscreen disabled when the car was in motion? What if the car couldn't EVER exceed the speed limit, under any circumstance? (even if it misread a speed limit sign as 5 instead of 55?)

What functionality did you actually buy when you bought the car? If you are ok with even the smallest feature removal, then you have to be ok with ANY feature removal. After all, you don't own the car, Tesla does. Or do they?

As a result of accepting an OTA update, I am giving Tesla the right to change software functionality, which may add or remove features. I don't see this in itself as a bad thing -- I get new features over time.

However, there often isn't enough information provided to decide if a given update removes functionality I care about. If I get that information up front, and I decide to accept it, I don't see the problem. I own the car, and I have the right to decide to give up features (possibly in exchange for others that I do want in the same update).

The problem for me is that I don't get the information to make that decision and am not really allowed to opt out if I choose to.

 

[green1]

That depends on your definition of "functionality" and "expectations". Mine differ from yours. Neither of us is "wrong". Both opinions are valid from each point-of-view.

I define functionality as the abilities the car has. It does not have the same abilities it had when I bought it. Hence removal of functionality.
I define expectations as the car doing what Tesla promised it would do before I bought the car, and what it was delivered with. It does neither, hence not meeting expectations.

As soon as someone posts that they're OK with the AP changes in 8.0, your first question to them is the "what functionality could Tesla remove from your car that would get you upset?" The purpose of that question is to start a chain of statements that is persuasive -- to maneuver the person into an argument where they must be upset with Tesla for the AP changes in 8.0. It seems that you cannot simply accept that opinions on AP1/8.0 like mine are valid. They are, and I will continue to voice that.

You're right, I can't accept it, because you still haven't answered the question. Please list what features of the car you own, and what features of the car Tesla is free to remove at will. Please explain why one group of features is fair game to be removed, while others must be kept.

I can't accept your position because I can't understand it in the least. Your position is that Tesla is free to remove some functionality, as long as it doesn't personally affect YOU, but if it affects others, that's fine. When they do finally remove something you care about, do you think others should defend Tesla? or badmouth you as you do me?

 

[green1]

As a result of accepting an OTA update, I am giving Tesla the right to change software functionality, which may add or remove features. My problem is that there often isn't enough information provided to decide if a given update removes functionality I care about. If I get that information up front, and I decide to accept it, I don't see the problem. I own the car, and I have the right to decide to give up features (possibly in exchange for others that I do want in the same update).

The problem for me is that I don't get the information to make that decision and am not really allowed to opt out if I choose to.

I actually mostly agree with you. With one caveat. No features should be disabled on older firmware while still within the warranty period.
If I don't want 7.1 because they removed functionality in it compared to 7.0, Tesla shouldn't be allowed to force me to upgrade by breaking maps and voice control in 7.0 (which they did).

I own the car, therefore I have the right to decide what updates I want to apply. Tesla actually agrees on this part, as they have told me repeatedly that it is up to me if I want to update my firmware or not. (I suspect they say this because they know full well that it would be illegal to force an update, and I'm pretty sure that's the only reason you get the choice of whether or not to apply updates)

 

[joebiker25]

I use AP every day on my mostly highway commute and love it! Today I was cruising along at 72 mph on a 65 mph freeway with very light drizzle and suddenly AP dropped to 60 MPH. A warning message flashed by but was gone before I could read it. After about 10 seconds, I was back to 72 MPH. This has never happened before.
Also, like many others here, I have stopped using AP on non highways as I don't want to hold up traffic by doing the exact speed limit :-(
software version 2.50.15

 

[somnambule]

I actually mostly agree with you. With one caveat. No features should be disabled on older firmware while still within the warranty period.
If I don't want 7.1 because they removed functionality in it compared to 7.0, Tesla shouldn't be allowed to force me to upgrade by breaking maps and voice control in 7.0 (which they did).

No disagreement on that from me; this is certainly implicit in my claim that I want to be able to opt out of an update if I choose to.

 

[green1]

No disagreement on that from me; this is certainly implicit in my claim that I want to be able to opt out of an update if I choose to.

There are actually 2 separate (but related) issues here though. The first is about whether or not Tesla can remove functionality from your car without your authorization (we seem to agree here), but the second is about what their obligations are to provide the functionality that they promised in the first place. Keeping in mind that they've so far delivered almost none of the features they actually promised when they introduced AP in the first place.

Now I consider myself a cautious consumer, and as a result, I didn't actually buy the car until they released 7.0, that way I knew I was getting at least a certain set of features. But Tesla promised a lot more, and I'm not sure it's enough to get Tesla to stop removing features, they took our money in exchange for a bunch of functionality that was never delivered in the first place.

 

[BerTX]

I use AP every day on my mostly highway commute and love it! Today I was cruising along at 72 mph on a 65 mph freeway with very light drizzle and suddenly AP dropped to 60 MPH. A warning message flashed by but was gone before I could read it. After about 10 seconds, I was back to 72 MPH. This has never happened before.
Also, like many others here, I have stopped using AP on non highways as I don't want to hold up traffic by doing the exact speed limit :-(
software version 2.50.15

I don't think I personally have a problem with the speed limit limitation because, if there is enough traffic going faster than the speed limit on a non-divided road, I don't want to use AP anyway. I'll use TACC and steer myself. If there is NOT a lot of traffic and I can safely go the speed limit, I don't have a problem doing that. I understand that a 5 mph difference in speed over an ENTIRE day of driving makes a grand total of about 40 minutes in arrival time. Include the reduced charging time, and it's probably close to a wash.

Am I upset about Tesla "removing" functionality? I'm not upset about them making changes to improve safety. Manufacturers do this normally only when they are forced to by the government or the courts. Tesla is able to do it OTA, so they're more proactive (and more active).

The AP is labeled as beta. Is that just a convenience for Tesla? Maybe. Either way, beta means features can be added and removed and changed. I might be disappointed in changes, but I don't feel wronged.

 

[somnambule]

There are actually 2 separate (but related) issues here though. The first is about whether or not Tesla can remove functionality from your car without your authorization (we seem to agree here), but the second is about what their obligations are to provide the functionality that they promised in the first place. Keeping in mind that they've so far delivered almost none of the features they actually promised when they introduced AP in the first place.

Now I consider myself a cautious consumer, and as a result, I didn't actually buy the car until they released 7.0, that way I knew I was getting at least a certain set of features. But Tesla promised a lot more, and I'm not sure it's enough to get Tesla to stop removing features, they took our money in exchange for a bunch of functionality that was never delivered in the first place.

Yeah, I'm pretty cautious as well and expected nothing more than what was available at the time of purchase. The thing with Tesla is that very little is in writing. As an example, I wanted to know how long the Tesla-paid LTE connection would be available and wasn't able to get a definitive answer. I was verbally told most likely 3 years, but even something as basic as that was not written down anywhere. Given how sparse the purchase contract was, I assumed anything more that showed up would be a bonus.

I'm no lawyer but I'm guessing the various promises scattered across blogs and tweets etc. have no bearing on the actual transactions. All I realistically want is to be told clearly when existing functionality is taken away.

 

[green1]

I'm no lawyer but I'm guessing the various promises scattered across blogs and tweets etc. have no bearing on the actual transactions. All I realistically want is to be told clearly when existing functionality is taken away.

Then you'd be wrong. There's a lot of case law that in the absence of detail in the purchase contract (which we agree is the case) that any other documentation around it is very relevant. So by Tesla only saying "autopilot" in the contract, instead of going in to detail, they implicitly pushed the definition of what AP was out to all the advertising they had done on it, which includes all the various promises scattered across blog posts, tweets, etc.
The case would be very different if the purchase contract said "Autopilot which is made up of active lane keeping assist, parallel and perpendicular parking assist, and the ability to move the car forward or backwards in a straight line while standing beside the car"

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I can't accept your position because I can't understand it in the least.

A-ha! Now we're getting somewhere

It's quite understandable that you would have trouble with my position if you don't understand how/why I came to my conclusions. My question to you is then, are you genuinely interested in how/why I feel the way I do? In almost all posts from you I've seen, your objective is to try to make others understand your point of view, but how much effort have you put into understanding others?

You may never agree with my point of view, but if you came to understand it that might help you.

 

[green1]

A-ha! Now we're getting somewhere

It's quite understandable that you would have trouble with my position if you don't understand how/why I came to my conclusions. My question to you is then, are you genuinely interested in how/why I feel the way I do? In almost all posts from you I've seen, your objective is to try to make others understand your point of view, but how much effort have you put into understanding others?

You may never agree with my point of view, but if you came to understand it that might help you.

As long as you continue to ignore my question about which features you own, and which ones Tesla is free to remove, and the difference between the two, I will not be able to understand. Please provide a detailed answer to that question and maybe we'll be getting somewhere.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

As long as you continue to ignore my question about which features you own, and which ones Tesla is free to remove, and the difference between the two, I will not be able to understand. Please provide a detailed answer to that question and maybe we'll be getting somewhere.

You actually never directly asked me that question, but I wouldn't answer it anyway. As I stated before, this is your way of working the discussion on your terms to reinforce your opinions. We're not going to do that. Either you're interested in how/why I feel the way I do without qualifiers, or you're not.

 

[somnambule]

Then you'd be wrong. There's a lot of case law that in the absence of detail in the purchase contract (which we agree is the case) that any other documentation around it is very relevant. So by Tesla only saying "autopilot" in the contract, instead of going in to detail, they implicitly pushed the definition of what AP was out to all the advertising they had done on it, which includes all the various promises scattered across blog posts, tweets, etc.
The case would be very different if the purchase contract said "Autopilot which is made up of active lane keeping assist, parallel and perpendicular parking assist, and the ability to move the car forward or backwards in a straight line while standing beside the car"

Saw in another thread that you have initiated some proceedings with regulatory bodies. Certainly interested in seeing where it leads.

 

[green1]

You actually never directly asked me that question, but I wouldn't answer it anyway. As I stated before, this is your way of working the discussion on your terms to reinforce your opinions. We're not going to do that. Either you're interested in how/why I feel the way I do without qualifiers, or you're not.

If you refuse to explain, then I can't understand. You need to be able to explain why certain features are acceptable to be removed, while others are not, before I can understand why you believe that to be the case.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Takes two to argue...would one of you please stop : >)

 

[SomeJoe7777]

My apologies for my off-topic posts in this thread. I believe green1 and I have implicitly agreed to disagree.

 

[Electroman]

MY apologies for hyperlinking green1 to this thread. Yet another thread - No 27 - has been derailed by the same "Tesla is cheating us with updates" argument from the same individual.

Sorry..

 

[Aieukl378]

I just came back from ~2k mile road trip up/down the east coast over the holidays. I love AP. Just wanted to add that to this thread.


With that being said, the +0 is so bad I don't use AP on undivided highways anymore. So during my roadtrip when we got off the interstate, I switch to manual driving.

My experience with

I use AP every day on my mostly highway commute and love it! Today I was cruising along at 72 mph on a 65 mph freeway with very light drizzle and suddenly AP dropped to 60 MPH. A warning message flashed by but was gone before I could read it. After about 10 seconds, I was back to 72 MPH. This has never happened before.
Also, like many others here, I have stopped using AP on non highways as I don't want to hold up traffic by doing the exact speed limit :-(
software version 2.50.15

On this East Coast 1200 mi round trip on I95 I used AP at 9mph over the speed limit and might have had 2 speed restriction slow downs the whole trip. It's actually pretty cool in speed trap areas(e.g. Alexandria, VA) when there is a sudden drop in the speed limit that you may not have noticed until to late.