First Model 3 motor failure reported

[cwerdna]

all the Leaf battery problems.

What are "all the Leaf battery problems"? Sure, plenty of folks have lost 4 capacity bars or more (usually in hot climates), some within the capacity warranty, and some outside. The worst I've seen pics or reports of so far is a 9 bar loser (only 3 capacity bars remaining): Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs - Page 790 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

The 30 kWh pack looks to be a dud, esp in hot climates w/a bunch of 1 to 4 capacity bar losers already. 30 kWh 4 bar losers I know of so far at 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses - Page 81 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Unclear if there is/are a bad batch(es), limited to a certain revision of that pack or just a bunch of defective packs or an inherent problem w/the 30 kWh pack.

Almost no Leaf packs have needed to be replaced for failure (I can't even think of one off the top of my head), NOT capacity loss. By failure, I'm talking about inability to take a charge or propel the vehicle or sudden turtle or power cut when there was plenty of charge left.

A couple folks have had a bad module, requiring replacement of the bad module(s) (e.g. 2012 SL with range collapse - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum), covered by the 8 year/100K defects warranty. I've seen a few cases of some sort of assembly error or loose connection inside the pack, causing a sudden turtle, but I can't think of more even 5 cases of this on MNL + some Leaf FB groups I'm on.

I've seen far more Model S or X battery packs replaced in their entirety (for whatever reason) than I've seen of Leaf packs replaced for defects or failures and NOT gradual capacity loss.

 

[scaesare]

When the drive units "fail" or get noisy, etc., is it the motor itself, or one of the other components, anyone know?
Does the "drive unit" include all three major pieces -- the motor, the AC/DC converter, and the reduction gear?
Be interesting to know which part(s) is (are) most prone to problems...

I believe it's widely held to be a bearing issue within the motor itself. The eddy currents from the rotor may have come in to play, pitting the bearing races due to arcing. I've had a couple of replacements, and spent some time with my service tech discussing the initial one.

The motors currently have ceramic bearings and current brushes, But I'm not sure of those were subsequent revisions.

 

[tomas]

See the last paragraph of my response at Drive Unit failure symptoms and thresholds for replacement.

It is odd that my thread at automotive reliability and durability testing is mostly crickets. I guess people here just aren't interested.

BTW, here are some examples of the 7th+ DU replacement:
Drive Unit Replacement Poll
6th drive unit replacement and more
Drive unit replacement - getting better?


While I wouldn't agree that it's 99%, I do agree that in the first years of Model S, most of the DU replacements were for noise and not outright failure (stopped providing propulsion or SC determined that DU was malfunctioning and required replacement)

Now, most of the DU replacements I've seen in the Model S and X built in the last ~2 years (or had their previous DU replacement in the last 2 years) have NOT been for noise, but for failing to provide propulsion.

Here are some examples of last 2 years or complete failures for older ones :
New P100d model S failed!!!
Car died today. Gear indicators turned red.
Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test
A bad week - Drive Unit Need Service
New Drive unit for 2016 refresh
Drive unit replacement - getting better?
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues
Warnings, More Warnings and then car "Unable to Drive"
Dual engine shut down on freeway. Anyone else?
Drive unit, new or refurbishishid?
Drive Unit Failed - Dashcam video
Clunks, Drones and Milling sounds: Just had a drive unit fail
New Model S Drive Unit Replaced at 734 Miles

I do not dispute that there have been real failures (no propulsion). However, problem is that - in this forum- real failures and cosmetic “milling sound” replacements (which are far more frequent) have gotten conflated into an illusion that drivetrain failures are frequent. They aren’t.

 

[JRP3]

I've seen far more Model S or X battery packs replaced in their entirety (for whatever reason) than I've seen of Leaf packs replaced for defects or failures and NOT gradual capacity loss.

I think that's because it's faster for Tesla to remove and replace a pack no matter what the issue, (failed contactors seem the most common issue), and then repair the pack and put it back into service.

 

[scaesare]

I do not dispute that there have been real failures (no propulsion). However, problem is that - in this forum- real failures and cosmetic “milling sound” replacements (which are far more frequent) have gotten conflated into an illusion that drivetrain failures are frequent. They aren’t.

I agree with this assessment.

My personal experience with 3 drive unit replacements involved two milling sound issues, and one momentary propulsion loss ultimately attributed to a connector issue.

Most discussion I've seen online also revolves around the milling sound issue. What's more, those appear to not be a significant issue with later revisions, as far as I've seen.

 

[cwerdna]

I do not dispute that there have been real failures (no propulsion). However, problem is that - in this forum- real failures and cosmetic “milling sound” replacements (which are far more frequent) have gotten conflated into an illusion that drivetrain failures are frequent. They aren’t.

DUs being replaced for noise were frequent in the past. Although some folks like to dispute it as "cosmetic", I sure wouldn't want to live with it while I still had a warranty. There have been plenty of videos posted here of various DUs (including those on the Tesla-powered gen 2 Rav4 EV) making noise that got replaced.

How frequently the above happens seems to have died down and has been replaced by DUs replaced for loss of propulsion. Hard to say how frequent it is, but in comparison, I can't think of a single report on MNL + the couple Leaf FB groups I'm on where a Leaf motor or motor/gearbox assembly has ever been replaced for loss of propulsion. The # where it was replaced for some other reason (i.e noise) is almost unheard of. The times I've seen it is FAR smaller than I've ever seen for loss of propulsion due to DU failure on the Model S.

 

[JRP3]

My personal experience with 3 pack replacements involved two milling sound issues,

I assume you meant drive unit.

 

[scaesare]

I assume you meant drive unit.

Erk... yes... thanks for catching that within the editing window!

 

[Miami Bob]

I assume I am the second 3 engine failure. Died at less than 50 miles.

 

[cwerdna]

I assume I am the second 3 engine failure. Died at less than 50 miles.

Would be good to know what's on your receipt, after they complete repairs.

 

[techmaven]

I assume I am the second 3 engine failure. Died at less than 50 miles.

Would be nice to know if it is the motor, high voltage junction box, or inverter.

 

[BigTonyTones]

Maybe this has something to do with my model 3 recall post I made
Part recall for Model 3

 

[cwerdna]

Anyone know of any update on the car reported in the OP?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

They lent him a P100D and he never came back to get the 3.

 

[jsmay311]

My Model 3 suffered a catastrophic mechanical failure earlier today that sounds similar to the failures described above. It happened only 25 hours and 63 miles after delivery, right upon the very first time I really "punched" the accelerator. See below for a more complete description.

But first, 2 questions for the TMC community:

1. Did anyone ever find out what happened in the earlier failures described in the posts above from back in February? ( @Miami Bob ?)
   
   
2. Are there any good visuals or diagrams that show the innards of the Model 3 rear drive unit that someone could share to help me hypothesize about what might have broken in there?

The service center won't look at it till Monday and I'm dying to understand what happened, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

------------------------------

Full story: I picked up my brand new LR RWD Model 3 yesterday. (VIN 37XXX) On the drive home I never felt the need to really punch the accelerator since I had previously rented a Model 3 on Turo and so I already knew what it was capable of.

Fast forward to this afternoon and I took a work friend out for a spin (he’s a reservation holder who’s undecided about placing an order). The car was going about 20mph when I punched the accelerator to show off what it was capable of. Immediately we hear a loud bang/pop from the back of the car, followed by an abrupt loss of power to the wheels (i.e., not responsive to accelerator inputs), followed by several seconds of violent shuddering and a loud squealing noise coming from the back of the car, and all the while the speedometer is wildly going all over the place (e.g., I think it zoomed up to over 50mph when we were only going 20mph, and then the mph numbers were erratically flickering and jumping around).

So I pull off to the side of the road. It still won’t respond to accelerator inputs (apart from a bit more shuddering from the rear and the speedometer jumping up to ~10mph despite the car not moving), so we push it into a nearby parking lot. There are 3 errors on the screen, including something about the emergency brake not available, and regen not working (I think), and one other thing I can't recall. I call Roadside Assistance who has me do a shut down and restart, which predictably does no good.

They call a tow truck which takes me and the car to the Westmont, IL service center. There they say they’ve never heard of any incidents with a Model 3 that sound anything like what I described, and they said they wouldn’t get a chance to look at it until Monday. But they were able to glance and see that the axle shafts appeared intact, so I’m guessing it’s gotta be something in the drive unit.

Sadly I wasn't as lucky as the guy from the original story who got a S P85 loaner. They didn't have any Tesla loaners available so they drove me down the street to wait in line at Enterprise for a rental.

 

[JRP3]

Sounds as if either a CV joint in the axle shaft broke or a drive gear in the motor/transaxle. Lesson learned, punch it hard in the delivery lot

 

[seattlite2004]

.....
Fast forward to this afternoon and I took a work friend out for a spin (he’s a reservation holder who’s undecided about placing an order).

Is your friend still undecided?

 

[VT_EE]

I will now give the car a punch right after delivery. That way, I can push it immediately back to the service center should there be an issue. Hope they resolve your issue quickly!

 

[P85_DA]

lol this is the second post where an owner took a friend out and the car broke down when “showing off” ... another user in Los Angeles had similar issue there is a separate thread as well ..;

 

[jsmay311]

lol this is the second post where an owner took a friend out and the car broke down when “showing off” ... another user in Los Angeles had similar issue there is a separate thread as well ..;

Sure... but it's not like I was doing anything out of the ordinary or even mildly abusive with the car, unless you're suggesting Model 3 owners should never try to use the full available acceleration. I guess I fail to see the humor unless someone is abusing their vehicle.

My only real fault was babying it too much up until that point. I actually had it in Chill mode for most of my 63 miles. If I had never tried to "show off" the acceleration, who knows how long I would've been driving around in a defective car without realizing it.