Nissan and Lexus have both been selling hands off systems since last year too. They are ahead of Tesla, no hands required and HD mapping already covering all major roads in the country.
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Nissan and Lexus have both been selling hands off systems since last year too. They are ahead of Tesla, no hands required and HD mapping already covering all major roads in the country.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Yes, it has. The new Supercruise added auto lane change and also works on far more highways.
They have been adding roads to their system, and they were about to release a version of it.
https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/en/cadillac/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/jan/0128-cadillac.html
I'd love to compare a 2021 Model with Supercruise versus my 2018 Model 3 with HW3/FSD. One of my favorite features of FSD is user initiated lane changes. It's so smooth, and none of that NoA bullcrap.
I think it depends on how one defines improvement.
When Tesla improved EAP/FSD to add auto-lane change they did so without adding changing any HW. Anyone that uses the Auto-lane changes has to be super attentive. This was a SW upgrade that everyone with AP 2.0 and above got.
Where Cadillac is introducing the auto-lane change on ONLY new models as it requires different HW. The reason it requires different HW is they beefed up the Rear Sensors. So that it can be dependable.
So which company improved their system over these 2 years?
Arguments could be made on both sides. It really depends on the answer you want.
Here is more info on the Cadillac improvements.
Cadillac Super Cruise Adds Auto Lane Change - ExtremeTech
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I am well aware that Enhanced SuperCruise required new hardware that was only available on new models. But Enhanced SuperCruise is still an improvement over the first SuperCruise IMO since it added new features.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Nope.
See this post-
Check the link... they "will" introduce auto lane change for 2021 models. Probably.
And by auto- they mean not auto at all. They mean if the driver manually uses the turn signal, it'll change lanes.
So, you know, catching up to Tesla circa 2014.
Meanwhile Tesla will change lanes and pass slower cars actually automatically
Uh... what?
That's exactly how it works.
Read the disclaimers on drugs currently available. There's all sorts of rare side effects that CAN be worse than what they are treating.
Doesn't mean we take the drug off the market- and it doesn't mean you can (successfully) sue because you were too stupid to read the label first.
About 450 people per year die from tylenol
And you can buy that OTC everywhere still and nobody gets to sue about it.
Uh...nope.
Why do people keep making crap up that's so easy to debunk?
Lexus and Nissan sell zero hands off driver aid systems in the US.
Lexus sells zero anywhere- see below
Lexus Will Introduce Hands-Off Driver Assist on a Car This Year
That's from Feb 2020... mentioning Lexus "will" introduce such a system...No details on EXACTLY when... or what models it'll come on... or what countries it'll work in though...(probably NOT the US based on what most other makers have done)
I mean- Audi said they WERE gonna introduce one back in 2017... they just recently admitted they're now NOT actually doing that.
Now Nissan DID actually roll one out in mid-late 2019... In Japan exclusively. On the Skyline exclusively.
It IS hands off.
Only works in a single lane, on specific roads though...
and not at all outside Japan-
so it's significantly less advanced than current EAP/FSD cars other than it checks driver attention a different way.
But, the lack of that info meant that I had to look it up. I first started to look up whether the additional roads were added to the older supercruise, and then I got distracted reading about the HW upgrades. When Cadillac introduced the system one of promises was the usage area would expand, and would be kept up to date.
Anyways, the SW upgradability of FSD is both it's greatest capability, and also the weakest aspect of it.
When you buy a Cadillac with Supercruise you might get the benefit of more mapped roads, and other small things over the course of ownership. You likely won't get any major upgrades, but what you get in the beginning will likely work well.
Where when you buy a post-AP1 Tesla you're an unpaid SW tester filled with excitement of unwrapping a present occasionally that might or might not work well.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
... so?
A system that does far less, and works far fewer places, but uses a different "is user paying attention" system doesn't seem a worthwhile trade, nor a reasonable way to define a "more advanced" system.
Possibly this is bias in that I DO pay attention, so I'd prefer the actual functionality of the better system rather than the "checks differently" pseudo-safety of the less capable system.
And as pointed out- given the time between "checks" on the caddy system there's no indication it would've prevented this accident either... other than the fact he was driving on a road the system would almost certainly not work at all so...again, no help there.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Sure. I guess it is subjective which system is "better". Personally. I would love hands-free.
MXLRplus
Active Member
General Observation:
There are an enormous amount of experts in this thread concerning cars they have never even sat in, much less driven.
Nearly all the MFRs even Hyundai are offering autosteering. And few here even really know their AP functionality, much less know how it compares to other systems. Did you know that not all autosteering systems shut off when you move 12" for a motorcycle? You can even pick your own choice of lanes when the road splits into 2 lanes.
Cadillac is just an example because somebody posted that 'Nobody In The Press Has Tested Any Self-Steering Systems other than Tesla AP.' It didn't take long to find an example. Edmunds is a pretty good source for neutral testing.
There are an enormous amount of experts in this thread concerning cars they have never even sat in, much less driven.
Nearly all the MFRs even Hyundai are offering autosteering. And few here even really know their AP functionality, much less know how it compares to other systems. Did you know that not all autosteering systems shut off when you move 12" for a motorcycle? You can even pick your own choice of lanes when the road splits into 2 lanes.
Cadillac is just an example because somebody posted that 'Nobody In The Press Has Tested Any Self-Steering Systems other than Tesla AP.' It didn't take long to find an example. Edmunds is a pretty good source for neutral testing.
I only use user initiated auto-lane changes in my Model 3 with FSD.
Using automatic auto-lane change has been problematic, and hasn't been reliable enough for me to use it. There were some obvious bugs like staying in the passing lane, and an abnormally long delay in beginning the lane change. Bugs that they introduced a little after they introduced NoA. Other people have claimed that those bugs are not in the HW3 version, but I haven't had a chance to test it after getting the HW3 upgrade.
I also wouldn't really classify AP1 auto-lane changes as anything like AP2 and beyond. AP1 doesn't have side cameras, and relies a lot more on the driver. There are also people who think it works better, but that's because it has no camera sensors to get confused by.
So the difference is only between when Tesla added auto-lane change functionality to AP2, and when the Enhanced Super Cruise vehicles start shipping.
Which is still a number of years, but there is a different between proven technology versus just beta technology. It takes awhile to validate HW/SW.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
And most of them suck
I even listed half a dozen brands (including Hyundai) I have personal experience with.
Caddys is excellent, in a single lane, on the specific limited # of roads it works on.
Everyone elses is basically garbage compared to Teslas current system.
That's true. Some just randomly turn off for no reason and you only realize it when you notice the car drifting and green LKA light on the dash went out.
Happened in, amusingly, a Hyundai rental just a couple months ago.
Basically it'd kinda mostly steer ok as long as it was generally straight interstates... anything at all twisty would confuse the crap out of it and lead to random disengagements for no apparent reason.
Similar experience on a 2020 Kia in January of this year that was loaded with every option you could get for the thing (a friend had bought top line 2020 Soul turbo and wanted me to "compare" it to my Tesla... it was absolute trash in comparison.)
Edmunds examines 3 semi-autonomous driving systems
The people you said were good as a source said:
One thing to be aware of is there is lane-steering vehicles, and lane-keep assist vehicles.
Those two things aren't equivalent even if they sound similar. Where lane-keep assist is really an assistance designed to help the driver keep the vehicle centered. Lane-steering is designed for the vehicle itself to do the steering. For example in a Tesla with FSD the car will actually nudge over if a semi-truck is next to you. The easiest way to really tell is to see what happens when you let it do the steering on curvy roads. If it's tracing the lines the lines pretty well it's full on lane-steering. If it's bouncing between lane markings then it's probably just lane-keep assist.
There are lots of vehicles that offer lane-keep assist, but only a handful that offer the fully on lane-steering.
Here is a good list, and it does a good job describing what kind of system it is. In particular I like how Lexus separates their lane-keep assist vehicles from their lane-trace assist vehicles. That helps their customers avoid confusion between the two systems,
https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-features-for-2020-418934/
There is also a difference between driver monitoring systems. Some systems like what Subaru offers can actually detect drowsiness. But, the current Supercruise system can't do that.
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MXLRplus
Active Member
I am fully aware of lane keeping and autosteering. I own cars with both systems. One is even a Tesla. The Subaru driver attentiveness system as far as I can tell is just like all the others. It's not a new tech. I'm lazy, here's plagiarism from Wiki on which cars have it.
- Audi: Rest recommendation system[8]
- BMW: Active Driving Assistant with Attention Assistant analyses driving behaviour and, if necessary, advises the driver to rest. The advice to take a break is provided in the form of graphic symbols shown on the Control Display.[9]
- Bosch: "Driver drowsiness detection"[10] takes input from the steering angle sensor, front-mounted lane assist camera, vehicle speed and turn signal stalk.
- Citroën: AFIL/LDWS uses different technologies to monitor the vehicle position on the road. Some models use sensors mounted in front of the front wheels, monitoring the lane markings. Other models use a camera mounted in top center of the windscreen for the same purpose. Both systems alert the driver by vibrations in the driver's seat, on the left or right half of the seat cushion, respectively.[11] Introduced with the 2005 model C4, later followed by 2008 C5 and 2013 C4 Picasso.
- DS:
- AFIL/LDWS:[12] Lane Departure Warning System gives an audible reminder if you drift out of your lane.
- DS DRIVER ATTENTION MONITORING[13] identifies any reduction in driver alertness. Using an infrared camera above the steering wheel, DS DRIVER ATTENTION MONITORING continuously monitors: the eyes for signs of tiredness (blinking); the face and head movements for signs of distraction; and the course steered by the car in its road lane (deviations or steering movements by the driver).
- Ford: Driver Alert,[14] introduced with 2011 Ford Focus.
- Honda: CRV introduced the Driver Attention Monitor in 2017.[15] It is also offered on the 2018 Accord[16]
- Hyundai: Driver Attention Alert (DAA), debuted with the 2017 i30.
- Jaguar Land Rover: Driver Condition Monitor and Driver Fatigue Alert, both evaluate driving technique for signs of driver fatigue. When the feature determines if the driver is fatigued, the message center displays the warning, TAKE A BREAK!, for 1 minute, accompanied by an audible chime. When driving continues for more than 15 minutes after the first warning, without taking a break, a further warning is given. The warning continues until the OK button on the steering wheel menu control is pressed.
- Kia: Driver Attention Warning (DAW), debuted with the 2018 Stinger.
- Mazda: Driver Attention Alert [17] Activates at speeds above 65 kilometres per hour (40 mph). Learns driving behavior through steering input and position of road during the beginning of the ride and compares the learned data during later stages of the ride. A difference above a certain threshold triggers an audible and visual cue. Debuted on 2015 Mazda CX-5.
- Mercedes-Benz: Attention Assist[18] In 2009, Mercedes-Benz unveiled a system called Attention Assist which monitors the driver's fatigue level and drowsiness based on his/her driving inputs. It issues a visual and audible alarm to alert the driver if he or she is too drowsy to continue driving. It is linked to the car's navigation system, and using that data, it can tell the driver where coffee and fuel are available.[19]
- Cadillac: GM 2018 Cadillac CT6 Super Cruise System, The Cadillac Super Cruise system uses FOVIO vision technology, developed by Seeing Machines , to enable a gumdrop-sized infrared camera on the steering wheel column to accurately determine the driver's attention state. This is accomplished through a precise measure of head orientation and eyelid movements under a full range of daytime and night-time driving conditions including the use of sunglasses.
- Nissan: Driver Attention Alert (DAA),[20] debuted with the 2014 Qashqai, followed by 2016 Maxima.
- Renault/Dacia: Tiredness Detection Warning (TDW), introduced with 2016 Megane.
- Subaru: EyeSight Driver Assist
- Škoda: iBuzz Fatigue Alert (available on most models since 2013 onwards)
- Volkswagen: Fatigue detection system[21]
- Volvo Cars: Driver Alert Control[22] In 2007, Volvo Cars launched the world's first Driver Drowsiness Detection system, Driver Alert Control. The system monitors the car's movements and assesses whether the vehicle is being driven in a controlled or uncontrolled way. If the system detects a high risk of the driver being drowsy, the driver is alerted via an audible signal. Also, a text message appears in the car's information display, alerting him or her with a coffee cup symbol to take a break. Additionally, the driver can continuously retrieve driving information from the car's trip computer. The starting-point is five bars. The less consistent the driving, the fewer bars remain.
But, I spent like 10 minutes editing my post trying to explain it better. Haha.
I really wish the manufactures would have agreed to use specific language when naming the systems.
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This list needs a lot of work to separate the list into camera based systems or driver steering input based systems. Then the camera based list needs to separate out which ones that can detect drowsy drivers versus ones that can't.
I don't think most of the systems listed will pass any regulatory requirement for a driver monitoring system especially on an L2 vehicle where there isn't driving technique data to go off of. Plus under Subaru it says Eyesight Driver Assist, but that isn't what the system is. It was just released in certain models, and it's camera based system.
I think if we looked at systems that monitored the driver using camera sensor(s), and monitored things like drowsiness and where they were looking at it we'd see much fewer, and they'd be much more recent.
I do expect to see a lot of European ones since I believe Europe is going to require it. So companies like Audi, BMW, MB have to introduce them. BMW already has their driver monitor system on the market for use with their extended traffic jam assist.
I expect the market for camera based driver attention systems to rapidly expand. So much so that I really need to do some research to determine if there isn't any long term investment opportunity.
Here is some good info on it.
https://www.autonomoustechconf.com/sites/autosensorsconf/files/assets/4%20Driver%20Monitoring%20Systems%20Seeing%20Machines_Tanaka.pdf
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Personally, given the current state of drivers aids I prefer to have my hand on the wheel, it allows you to feel when the computer is unsure before bad things happen. Maybe super cruise so good it's not a concern...but I doubt it. In Tesla's case they are pushing their operational domain so failures are assured. I want to have my hand on the wheel when that failure happens.
I've tried a couple of competitors driving aids and they seem to have a tendency to just give up without really telling you. Not to mention they are finicky to activate and don't give much info to the driver to asses if it is going to make the right decision. I haven't tried super cruise but I wouldn't pay for any of the others I've tried.
I've tried a couple of competitors driving aids and they seem to have a tendency to just give up without really telling you. Not to mention they are finicky to activate and don't give much info to the driver to asses if it is going to make the right decision. I haven't tried super cruise but I wouldn't pay for any of the others I've tried.
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