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First pedestrian killed by Autopilot, family sues

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
No because if/when the vehicle is fully autonomous, they’d need to change the name. Besides, boats and planes have been using that same name for years and hasn’t needed to be changed. This whole “if the name was different this wouldn’t happen” nonsense, has really got to end.

If something as simple as a name confuses people even though they are warned to pay attention and keep their hands on the wheel EVERY TIME the system is turned on, then there is no hope for those people. That is just a cop out.

Talking about simple, how are you doing? ;)

The idea that you believe AP is a multitasking system for car drivers proves your license was issued in error.
 

Soda Popinski

Member
May 9, 2018
407
550
Los Angeles, CA
AP Should have been called Co-Pilot. It is best used as a safety device not a multitasking app for cars.

Definitely an even worse name. A co-pilot can take over piloting responsibilities from the pilot, allowing the pilot to sleep or eat or go to the bathroom. Autopilot in conjunction with Autothrottle requires the pilot to remain alert, and not "multi-task."
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
Definitely an even worse name. A co-pilot can take over piloting responsibilities from the pilot, allowing the pilot to sleep or eat or go to the bathroom. Autopilot in conjunction with Autothrottle requires the pilot to remain alert, and not "multi-task."

Well focus groups decided that Back-Seat-Driver and Your-Mom were both turn-offs to potential owners.

The point is that lots of people who don't drive Teslas still believe that it's an AV system. It is best treated as a safety system not a primary driver.

Cadillac might have hit it right on. They called it Super Cruise. So they can still go Ultra Cruise, then Ultimate Cruise, and finally OMFG!!! IT'S NOW SELF-AWARE AND IT'S MOWING DOWN PUPPIES AND KITTENS!!!
 

JimBinDallas

Member
Jul 1, 2019
6
10
Murphy, Texas
2015 MS with AP1. I do about one 900 mile trip per month, and AP is a lifesaver. I'm also a pilot (ex mil & civilian) and have a healthy respect for the way machines can try to kill you. I know to not turn on the turn signal unless I have checked everywhere first. I do have a bone to pick to with the way AP handles a cut-out. Assuming that a preceding vehicle is changing lanes solely to let the superior Tesla immediately and RAPIDLY accelerate past to impress the other driver is STUPID AI !! There is no "intelligence" there. I want it to pause several seconds to ascertain whether a stationary object is suddenly revealed in my path and activate the AEB.

On AP, I was following about 7 car lengths behind a car that suddenly jerked the wheel to the left. He clipped the edge of the queen sized box spring laying in the middle of the lane which my Model S happily jammed the throttle down to hit it at the maximum speed possible. Lots of damage. If a car changes lanes from in front of me without AP I instantly go on the alert as to why he did it and look for a reason. I do not instantly accelerate with my eyes closed.
 

Aerosteed

Member
Mar 27, 2020
7
5
San Francisco
I wonder why Tesla doesn't treat these accidents like the aviation industry treats air crashes. If people have died (and it is easy to see how more will) without better attention detection systems in place, why don't they at least acknowledge the fact that more needs to be done and make a sincere effort to do better? That said, I do believe that these driver assistance systems or self driving tech that Tesla, Waymo, etc are developing will, in general, reduce driving related accidents and deaths. Their adoption shouldn't be slowed down by lawsuits. While they may not have a completely clean record, any improvement as compared to fully human driven cars is good and should be recognized.
 
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MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't people who don't drive Teslas not use Tesla's Autopilot? This would make it difficult for them to mis-use Tesla's Autopilot, not driving a Tesla.

Nobody is born driving a Tesla, well except X Æ A-12.
Then one day they do ...

This is why we can't have nice things, because they let non-Tesla owners buy Teslas.:rolleyes:
 

Ludalicious

Active Member
Feb 22, 2018
1,105
1,433
Vancouver
Actually some cars will nail the brakes when ACC is active and a pedestrian is in your gunsight. Really. I did some testing with Cadillac's system. It honestly will ID a human at day or night and will warn and then slam the brakes to the floor to protect the pedestrian.

But remember other automakers are far, far, far behind Tesla in these areas. My testing was done years ago.

Not a chance. Numerous manufacturers have been failing the swoop technique for years. Tesla is absolutely no different than any other manufacturer when it comes to detecting stationary items when a vehicle changes lanes infront of it. It's something that all manufacturers are trying to solve but haven't thus far.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/heres-why-people-still-crash-with-driver-assistance-systems/

This lawsuit doesn't have a leg to stand on. Good luck
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
Not a chance. Numerous manufacturers have been failing the swoop technique for years. Tesla is absolutely no different than any other manufacturer when it comes to detecting stationary items when a vehicle changes lanes infront of it. It's something that all manufacturers are trying to solve but haven't thus far.

Here’s why people still crash with driver assistance systems

This lawsuit doesn't have a leg to stand on. Good luck

I'd agree with you if you were right. The Tesla is my 4th car with autosteering. It's my newest with AEB. If you are imagining that Tesla has a lead in this area, brush that thought aside. It's not.
 

VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,082
2,788
Maryland
I'd agree with you if you were right. The Tesla is my 4th car with autosteering. It's my newest with AEB. If you are imagining that Tesla has a lead in this area, brush that thought aside. It's not.
Are you referring to AEB or Autosteer? I have yet to see a review by any publication where another manufacturer’s Autosteer-type product performs as well as Tesla’s.
 
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MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
Are you referring to AEB or Autosteer? I have yet to see a review by any publication where another manufacturer’s Autosteer-type product performs as well as Tesla’s.

You don't have to. Just go hop in one at a dealer. What brand do you prefer?

AP has some bugs. All of the them do. In a few ways AP is a bit buggier than average for 2020.

This is a two year old review (I fast forwarded to summary):




But seriously, if you were interested in the tech, you would not have made your post. If you'd like to know which bugs AP has that others don't let me know via PM, otherwise believe anything you wish to believe.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,657
23,211
NC
You don't have to. Just go hop in one at a dealer. What brand do you prefer?

AP has some bugs. All of the them do. In a few ways AP is a bit buggier than average for 2020.

This is a two year old review (I fast forwarded to summary):

And Caddy hasn't really improved their system in 2 years.

Tesla has.

And Caddy was the only company even vaguely competetive 2 years ago (and only on about 10% of the roads Teslas system can be used on)


I've used TACC and/or AP equivalents from half a dozen other brands via rentals-Lexus, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, Infiniti, Kia, etc... and they're all hot garbage compared to Tesla.

Caddys system is genuinely pretty good- as long as you don't mind it working vastly fewer places and not actually doing anything besides the equivalent of basic AP/TACC.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,657
23,211
NC
Go test the other cars. They are not what Electrek tells you they are.


It'd help if you actually read the posts you are replying to.

Like where I specifically mentioned I've "used TACC and/or AP equivalents from half a dozen other brands via rentals-Lexus, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, Infiniti, Kia, etc... and they're all hot garbage compared to Tesla."


They're crap. They suck. They work very poorly in comparison to. Up to and including 2020 models.

Let me know, specifically, where you're still getting lost.
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,082
2,788
Maryland
You don't have to. Just go hop in one at a dealer. What brand do you prefer?

AP has some bugs. All of the them do. In a few ways AP is a bit buggier than average for 2020.

This is a two year old review (I fast forwarded to summary):




But seriously, if you were interested in the tech, you would not have made your post. If you'd like to know which bugs AP has that others don't let me know via PM, otherwise believe anything you wish to believe.
GM's SuperCruise is handicapped by the fact that it requires extremely detailed and accurate maps to work properly (based on articles I read a couple years ago). Relying on maps rather than a built-in ability to interpret situational data, is unlikely to scale well outside of major highway routes and leaves the system vulnerable to environmental changes. Autopilot has also improved immensely over the last two years. I haven't driven a Cadillac with SuperCruise, however, I haven't seen anything recently on any updates since it came out. Either it hasn't changed, or publications just aren't impressed enough to write about it.
 

ram1901

Member
Feb 8, 2017
65
113
Delaware
Late to the party. I'm sure it's been said 100 times in other posts... but everytime I see stories
like this I have to vent!!

AutoPilot, as it's called, a name that Chrysler Corporation used to describe their cruise control
system back in the 70's, did NOT kill anyone.

Civilly you may find a jury that is dumb enough to believe that but, as all Tesla owners should know
by now, AutoPilot is nothing more than a driver's assistance feature similar to cruise control on steroids
AND before you turn it on, you must acknowledge its limitations and accept that YOU, the DRIVER
must remain in control of the car at all times. Not only are we warned of this everytime we turn on
AP, but it's the law. The court should never accept the 'devil made me do it' or in this case AP made me do
it defense. If a pedestrian was struck by a Tesla, the driver is responsible. Of course one could ask what
the pedestrian was doing in the street in the first place? Did they have the right of way? Didn't read the story.

As for driver's falling asleep behind the wheel, (seriously,) this is not unique to Tesla. One of my
older brothers did that years ago while driving his Corvette home from a late night at the hospital and
ended up sheering off the top of his car while passing under a tractor trailer. Fortunately he had
fallen over in the seat below the dash line and lived to tell the story even though the 'vet was totalled
and paramedics couldn't believe he was alive when they arrived on the scene.

Modern cars are filled with all kinds of distractions, another issues that is not unique to Tesla's. Hitting
a pedestrian could occur when a parent turns for a split second to check on an out of control child in
the backseat. The driver is still responsible for the accident, not the car.
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
Except, the law DOES care.

If something kills people LESS often than NOT having it- that's the OPPOSITE of a liability.

But apart from that- The two non-highway deaths were investigated and in both cases Tesla was found to not be responsible.

The idiot using the system someplace it's explicitly, in writing, not supposed to be used, were responsible.

Even the one HIGHWAY case- They found that he was playing a mobile game prior to the crash, and said that was “likely” the reason why he didn’t try to turn away from the barrier. They bitched that the NHTSA (which unlike the NTSB can set rules) wasn't doing a good enough job setting rules to require better driver engagement checking- but Tesla was entirely compliant with EXISTING rules with their current system.






It really doesn't.

Because the NTSB doesn't actually set laws or policy.

Basically they said it doesn't, in their opinion, do enough to tell if the driver is distracted but that's the fault of the NHTSA- which, not the NTSB, is the org that can change that... and that until the RULES change there's no requirement for Tesla to do so.

"Did everything legally required- but that wasn't enough to stop an idiot from killing himself by playing video games while driving" is a pretty tough case to win in court I'm afraid.

That's not how it works at all. You might have a cure for cancer that works 99% of the time but you still have to test it and figure out how to protect that 1% it kills.

Meanwhile people with cancer keep dying. That's how it works.
 
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