Audi Q6 e-tron EV

[AnxietyRanger]

@tescroft Look, this is becoming pointless, because we're so different. I agree good deals can be had on BEVs and Teslas, and I agree TCO can be lower in some circumstances. But I would argue there is some hubris in the latter, for example the cost battery degradation is massive unknown.

The argument was: A Renault Espace 1.6 diesel would cost the same as a Model S/X, why would anyone buy anything other than a Tesla. I'm arguing why that really doesn't apply to everyone. I'm sure it does apply to someone in some circumstances, especially with the BEV incentives and low financing available (and if there is no low financing available for the Renault or you can't buy cash or finance separately etc.), but it just quickly becomes pointless because the circumstances are so different.

It is all fine and dandy to present a calculation as food for thought. I appreciate the Renault exercise for that, I really do. My problem were with the extrapolations from it.

People are comparing realities in different markets and different situations. For example 10 year TCO, 5 year residual guarantees or infinite mile warranties mean nothing to someone that swaps cars within warranty periods anyway, for example. Most of my cars I drive 1-3 years. Model S I had for a bit over 2 years. In that period and with my miles any German would have been in-warranty. I don't have access to incentives that would apply to a Tesla.

In short-term ownership I've found Tesla's maintenance costs (sure you can skip, but would you want to anymore than with any car) to be massive and things get very bleak if you crash (luckily I haven't). The insurance costs are very high. Tesla's trade-in offers are poor. But I agree I'm talking of the very high-end (Tesla-wise), relatively frequent car swapping periods, so I'm not saying my circumstances apply to everyone.

I came into Tesla ownership with many of the same assumptions as people did on this thread and came away disappointed. They are, to me, very expensive cars to own and operate. That's OK, they're mostly worth the price, but that's just the reality too. No way would a Renault Espace (any version) cost me the same, it just wouldn't.

That's really all I'm saying, do the math, check your individual circumstances and beware of hubris. In a thread about the new Audi e-tron, no less, where we should be saying no such things about Teslas anyway.

As for the BEV vs. ICE battle, worry you not, I'm a believer.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Audi Spied Testing E-Tron Quattro EV CUV At Nürburgring

Oh cock. There's that car ruined.

 

[SuisseDriver]

@tescroft Look, this is becoming pointless, because we're so different. I agree good deals can be had on BEVs and Teslas, and I agree TCO can be lower in some circumstances. But I would argue there is some hubris in the latter, for example the cost battery degradation is massive unknown.

You are right but you are using deceptive wording. You are speaking of good “deals” and “some circumstances”. This is more broader than that. Sure, in US, with diesel gallon at 2,6$ (is it the price over there?), the calculation is obviously very different.

But here in Europe, the price of the diesel is pretty much the same in all the countries. So the “some” can be changed by “ALL”.
Also, I will not detail all the incentives for electrical vehicules of every single countrie in Europe but I can tell you that those incentives are existing in pretty much almost every country in Europe.


So we are not speaking of any “deal” here but the cost reality on this continent.


Now, specifically on the battery degradation, you have seen the link about the Tesla having made ½ million kilometers. I do not know many ICE that do that honestly. And there are extensive feedback of Tesla batteries having only lost 5-6% of their capacity after 200 000- 300 000km. So it is already a “massive” KNOWN that battery degradation is indeed not the problem on EV (at least on Tesla thermal managed batteries).

@tescroft

The argument was: A Renault Espace 1.6 diesel would cost the same as a Model S/X, why would anyone buy anything other than a Tesla. I'm arguing why that really doesn't apply to everyone. I'm sure it does apply to someone in some circumstances, especially with the BEV incentives and low financing available (and if there is no low financing available for the Renault or you can't buy cash or finance separately etc.), but it just quickly becomes pointless because the circumstances are so different.

See above regarding again your usage of “some”. Renault, like Peugeot, VW group brands, Jaguar and others are all proposing financing. But the usual rate is between 4-5,5%. Same for the bank.

You only get sub-2% leasing rate in exceptional cases or “deals” but it is not a normal case at all. So financing 80k at 5%, this is adding already 10k of fees. This is massive.

@tescroft

It is all fine and dandy to present a calculation as food for thought. I appreciate the Renault exercise for that, I really do. My problem were with the extrapolations from it.


People are comparing realities in different markets and different situations. For example 10 year TCO, 5 year residual guarantees or infinite mile warranties mean nothing to someone that swaps cars within warranty periods anyway, for example. Most of my cars I drive 1-3 years. Model S I had for a bit over 2 years. In that period and with my miles any German would have been in-warranty. I don't have access to incentives that would apply to a Tesla.

Sure, if you make 0km, the saving you have using electricity is much less important.

But the finding is mostly the same for short duration. Let’s consider 3 years leasing, 5k€ down payment and 10000km/year:

- Tesla S75 : 920€/month

- Espace 1,6 DCI Initial Paris : 740€ + 70€ (delta diesel / electricity) = 810€/month

- Passat Variant 2.0 TDI highline and NO option : 785€ + 70€ = 855€

- Audi A7 3.0 TDI (the smallest 3.0 engine) and NO option : 1340€ + 70€ = 1410€


The Espace is 12% cheaper, the Passat 7% cheaper and the A7 … 53% more expensive.

And an A7 needs to be configured with options to come close to what the Tesla offer.


You can still see that the Tesla is much much closer to a medium class car than a premium car and I am even not speaking of Classe S or Serie 7 cars here.

@tescroft

In short-term ownership I've found Tesla's maintenance costs (sure you can skip, but would you want to anymore than with any car) to be massive and things get very bleak if you crash (luckily I haven't). The insurance costs are very high. Tesla's trade-in offers are poor. But I agree I'm talking of the very high-end (Tesla-wise), relatively frequent car swapping periods, so I'm not saying my circumstances apply to everyone.

Could you give more info about your own experience on that? The Tesla is guaranteed 4 years for everything so what would be the “massive” maintenance costs that you had on the Tesla if you only kept the car 2-3 years?


Even if this warranty of 4 years would not exist, an A7 with the smaller 6 cylinder engine, with options to match the Tesla, would cost roughly 30 000€ more after 3 years so I have hard time to believe that maintenance cost (not repair cost) could be anything close to that on the Tesla.

@tescroft

I came into Tesla ownership with many of the same assumptions as people did on this thread and came away disappointed. They are, to me, very expensive cars to own and operate. That's OK, they're mostly worth the price, but that's just the reality too. No way would a Renault Espace (any version) cost me the same, it just wouldn't.

Again really REALLY genuinely interested to know what costs you had during the 2-3 years of ownership, could you please expand and share on this?

 

[ohmman]

Again really REALLY genuinely interested to know what costs you had during the 2-3 years of ownership, could you please expand and share on this?

To give my experience here, I had to spend $1000 on my Model S due to an error I made in choosing unapproved snow chains. I don't really count that against the vehicle.

Otherwise, between my S and X, my costs have amounted to the energy used to charge them, which is vastly cheaper than what I'd have spent on gas. There is an unrealized loss in terms of depreciation, but I have not seen convincing evidence that it's outside of the norm of other vehicles in their price range. I also am not convinced that they depreciate less, at least not anymore. Initially I think they were holding value due to their relative scarcity. There is also a time cost on my Model X, which was in for service regularly when I first received it. I owned a vehicle that I did not possess. In a fair accounting, that would look like a loss. I had a loaner, which would offset it to some degree, but not fully.

I am interested in @AnxietyRanger's costs to own as well.

 

[Spidy]

You are right but you are using deceptive wording. You are speaking of good “deals” and “some circumstances”. This is more broader than that. Sure, in US, with diesel gallon at 2,6$ (is it the price over there?), the calculation is obviously very different.

But here in Europe, the price of the diesel is pretty much the same in all the countries. So the “some” can be changed by “ALL”.
Also, I will not detail all the incentives for electrical vehicules of every single countrie in Europe but I can tell you that those incentives are existing in pretty much almost every country in Europe.


So we are not speaking of any “deal” here but the cost reality on this continent.


Now, specifically on the battery degradation, you have seen the link about the Tesla having made ½ million kilometers. I do not know many ICE that do that honestly. And there are extensive feedback of Tesla batteries having only lost 5-6% of their capacity after 200 000- 300 000km. So it is already a “massive” KNOWN that battery degradation is indeed not the problem on EV (at least on Tesla thermal managed batteries).





See above regarding again your usage of “some”. Renault, like Peugeot, VW group brands, Jaguar and others are all proposing financing. But the usual rate is between 4-5,5%. Same for the bank.

You only get sub-2% leasing rate in exceptional cases or “deals” but it is not a normal case at all. So financing 80k at 5%, this is adding already 10k of fees. This is massive.




Sure, if you make 0km, the saving you have using electricity is much less important.

But the finding is mostly the same for short duration. Let’s consider 3 years leasing, 5k€ down payment and 10000km/year:

- Tesla S75 : 920€/month

- Espace 1,6 DCI Initial Paris : 740€ + 70€ (delta diesel / electricity) = 810€/month

- Passat Variant 2.0 TDI highline and NO option : 785€ + 70€ = 855€

- Audi A7 3.0 TDI (the smallest 3.0 engine) and NO option : 1340€ + 70€ = 1410€


The Espace is 12% cheaper, the Passat 7% cheaper and the A7 … 53% more expensive.

And an A7 needs to be configured with options to come close to what the Tesla offer.


You can still see that the Tesla is much much closer to a medium class car than a premium car and I am even not speaking of Classe S or Serie 7 cars here.





Could you give more info about your own experience on that? The Tesla is guaranteed 4 years for everything so what would be the “massive” maintenance costs that you had on the Tesla if you only kept the car 2-3 years?


Even if this warranty of 4 years would not exist, an A7 with the smaller 6 cylinder engine, with options to match the Tesla, would cost roughly 30 000€ more after 3 years so I have hard time to believe that maintenance cost (not repair cost) could be anything close to that on the Tesla.





Again really REALLY genuinely interested to know what costs you had during the 2-3 years of ownership, could you please expand and share on this?

Congrats you have made it on my ignore list!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

All I was trying to politely suggest was that circumstances are different. I can't still see why that was so hard to understand or appreciate. To me it is common sense that different markets have different incentives, differences in financing, different insurance, different trade-in calculations, different charging costs etc. and different people have different financing means and needs, vastly different mileage, different ownership length etc.

Frankly, I thought noting that politely would be the end of it.

Apparently not.

I just did the TCO calculation for my Model S, for 2.5 years (it was supposed to be only a 1 year buy, but Model X was delayed), and it was higher than buying a Renault Espace and burning it... using 100 bottles of Dom Perignon and a tanker car's worth of gasoline (well, maybe the tanker is an exaggeration). Yeah, by far the most expensive car to own that I have ever had. And yes, more expensive than the loaded high-end Audi A8, which I kept 1.5 years longer.

Service was not a factor that made any difference. The Tesla had annual services, which are not much differently priced from the first ICE services. I know they are optional now (were not always), but who wants to skip them for a car... An Audi has a service every 2 years or so only (not annual), that cost is not significantly different for initial services. Service cost benefit requires long ownership or higher mileage, neither of which usually apply to me. (The Audi actually was an unlikely long ownership for me, I liked it, but still, lower mileage.)

The Audi obviously had gasoline costs, which are higher than electricity costs. But that doesn't really matter for TCO when the Tesla was depreciating significanly faster than the Audi was racking up gasoline bills. In the end, after 2.5 years, I got the a lower trade-in percentage from the Tesla than I did after 4 years of the Audi A8. The Audi and Tesla were similarly priced when new, so the Model S returned also less absolute money after 2.5 years to me than the Audi did after 4 years.

The difference was bigger than my entire gasoline bill for the four years of ownership, before deducting any cost of electricity for the Tesla.

No incentives were available for either.

Fair enough?

I do appreciate the lease math in an incentivized market that @SuisseDriver pointed out. If you are willing to lock yourself down to the car for a number of years, need the financing and/or can't get better ones, and are in the market for a low-end Tesla instead of a high-end one, the math sounds a-OK to me. I'm not sure if the lease includes all the necessary insurances etc. depending on market, but insurance rates of course are also market dependent. Also I think there may be some hubris on the part of the service costs, but OK especially for longer-term ownership where the long drivetrain warranty is useful.

If you buy instead of lease, can't rely on a suitable guaranteed trade-in due to length of ownership, the insurance math doesn't work in your locale, or if the length of ownership is not sufficient to cover any benefit in TCO, the math falls apart. I'm sure there are many other circumstances that I'm not even considering here enough. But THAT was my point! Appreciate that people have vastly different circumstances.

One thing to note here is that Tesla has been noted to have notoriously bad trade-in values for Teslas. They actually offer better for non-Teslas. This has been documented on TMC as well. For my TCO on the Model S, this was by far the biggest issue. I am perfectly willing also to note that one may get better offers from other buyers, but again, that is not something all high-end car owners want to hassle with. It is different from selling a lower-priced used car.

There may also be favorable trade-in maths depending on the market. In some places Tesla's are highly sought after and you can get great trade-ins especially if you put an effort into it. Then again, in other places, not so much.

Someone mentioned the 10 year TCO question and I noted the battery degradation question. As for that, I did not mean just over mileage, but over time. If the belief that BEV's require battery changes after a number of years is false, then of course that is not a major concern. I'm not sure we quite know yet what the TCO is for very long ownership in that sense, what happens when you go beyond that 8 years. No Model S is that age yet.

Look, I went into the Model S with all the hubris in the world - and all the naive belief that it would be very cheap to own and operate.

I was wrong in my hubris and just wanted to share a word of caution to check the math in your locale, whatever it may be, and not take it for granted.

 

[SuisseDriver]

I was wrong in my hubris and just wanted to share a word of caution to check the math in your locale, whatever it may be, and not take it for granted.

Sorry if I was not able to convey my message properly as English is not my mother tongue.
What I wanted to express is that, within Europe (a pretty big market) at least, the hypothesis are pretty much the same (money borrowing rated, diesel versus electricity prices...).
Obviously, the duration of the leasing / financing or the number of km is driving influence the TCO one way or another.
So I was not trying in anyway to counter your experience (in USA I guess?).

I must admit that I don't think a lot of people are purchasing cash a 100k+ car, so financing (by your own mean / bank) or leasing (by the car manufacturer) is an element that most has to deal with but if you save on this, great, it offsets the cost of 5-10k depending how much % you need to finance and the rate.
For the resale value, I must admit being surprised as well and it may come again from the US market discrepancy: here, in Europe, my Audi A6 3.0 TDI from 2012 (a 85k€ car) is only valued around 15-18k€ on the market.
On the other end, there are no Tesla from end of 2012 - 2013 that are below 55k€. So the Tesla are still today holding SIGNIFICANTLY better their values.

So as I showed, here in Europe, even with less driving and a payment cash, I cannot fathom which calculation would make an Audi A8 remotely close in total cost to a Tesla but again, I do not know your specific case.
In my case, I cannot afford anymore a middle range Audi A6 but a Tesla which is half the cost is something I can finance. So an Audi A8 is completely out of reach and dream in my case.

Now, again, one point of interest for me is when you said that the "maintenance cost were massive". Could you share what maintenance cost you had during those 1-2-3 years of ownership where the car was supposed to be still under full warranty?
I am not trying to argue with you but to understand where those costs are coming from as I do not really understand and cannot translate your findings with the elements and infos I have collected so far (as I do not have the Tesla yet and will only get it in November)...

So thanks in advance to share what costs you had as it may helps us, future owner.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I appreciate the conversation, thank you.

I think I've gone to the detail and tit-for-tat I wish personally, and think it has been a good exchange with interesting ideas for people to ponder. I'll let others pick up from here if they wish, I even linked here from here: How Many Considering Model X or Much Less Expensive Car? The TCO conversation is sure to continue.

To summarize my general opinion on this:

Overall, I do believe BEVs can offer potentially massive TCO savings over time, the common sense logic over less moving parts and less dirty parts makes a lot of sense - always has. The potential is there. It just doesn't necessarily manifest itself for those who keep the car a shorter time and drive less miles, and during these early crazy years when there are various unknowns, where other factors affect a TCO much more than durability and maintenance.

Add to this, BEVs can get incentives in many markets and Tesla does offer some lucratice financing and insurance terms at the moment. These can help sweeten the deal, certainly.

Still, overall, there are question marks in how our early adopter cars keep their value as BEV prices trundle downwards, how the battery is affected over time and what unknowns emerge once cars actually go out of warranty. And if you do crash or your Tesla faces extensive repairs, the delays and costs of that are significantly higher than with most ICEs. People have been months without their cars. So, early adopters may continue to be adversely affected (like I was with the Model S depreciation), even though in general, over time, clear TCO benefits for BEVs are emerging.

Then again, early adopters may also benefit from incentives and financial terms and free parking or charging or whatever benefits, tha may not be available later.

Sp this is not an either-or thing at all, individual circumstances can affect it a lot, and all I was saying is make sure you research your's.

I do believe the 300k, 400k (miles and km) Teslas making the news rounds recently are testament that real savings certainly can be had vs. an ICE of the same mileage, let alone reliability. The math is just very different for a guy who likes to sit in a new car every 1-2 years usually and drives 10k, not 100k.

 

[AustinPowers]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I am not speaking of purchasing price which, appart from the rare people that can buy a 100k€ car cash, is a useless info.
What is important for a buyer is how much a car cost to you.

Your experience and findings are mirroring exactly mine and indeed, a Tesla is mind blowingly cheap when you consider the Total Cost of Ownership.

I don't see how I proved your point at all.

For a start, I didn't compare the purchasing price, I compared the leasing rates - both included our BEV incentives already, so no added bonus for either vehicle, as the 2K Euro grant from the government applies to both.
So when I do compare the leasing rates, the Model S is about 200 Euro more expensive - every month, so about 2.4K Euro each year. Say you have a four year leasing period, you are already 9.6K Euro ahead on the Espace.

Then there is the insurance. I just calculated a comparison for both vehicles: the Model S was about 953 Euro a year, the Espace about 523 Euro. So again a disadvantage for the Model S, this time 430 Euro per year or just over 1.7K Euro over a four year period.

Additionally, there is the service cost. For the Renault, a so called "full service package" is available for about 50 Euro a month, i.e. 600 Euro a year. This includes, as the name implies, everything from wiper blades to a defective gearbox, from MOT to a full engine replacement. Only thing that isn't included is tyres.
Tesla service cost for the Model S is unknown to me. Some here quoted 500K Euro a year, others said 1K Euro a year. I thought leasing would include service costs, so I would say the Model S should return a zero here.

To complete a TCO, I have to add the "fuel" costs for both verhicles. I drive about 10K kilometres per year.
The ADAC measured a realistic fuel consumption for said model of Espace at exactly 6 litres of Diesel per 100km. At the current price level of 1.10 Euro per litre, the fuel consumption would be 660 Euro per year or 2,640 Euro over four years.
Now the S 75D according to the ADAC data uses about 18.5kWh per 100km. At 0.28 Euro per kWh that amounts to 518 Euro per year or 2,072 Euro over four years.

Last but not least there is vehicle tax in Germany, 208 Euro per year or 832 Euro over four years for the Espace, 0 Euro for the Model S.

So, to sum up:
Over the four year period in my usecase, the Espace saves 9.6K Euro on leasing payments and 1,7K Euro in insurance, or 11,3K Euro in total. Otoh it costs 2,4K Euro more in service costs, 832 Euro in vehicle tax, and 568 Euro in fuel. All in all, the Espace costs exactly 7.5K Euro less than the Model S over four years. Quite a substantial difference, wouldn't you say?

And residual value - after four years - for the Espace, which is a relatively new model, is not that easy to calculate, but at 52K Euro list price, I would wager to guess that the residual after four years will be higher that 26K Euro. But even if it wasn't, the abovementioned 7.5K advantage over the Model S leaves room for quite some added depriciation.

 

[AustinPowers]

But here in Europe, the price of the diesel is pretty much the same in all the countries. So the “some” can be changed by “ALL”.

Fascinating. How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Current (i.e. today) prices for 1 litre of Diesel in Europe range from 1.48 Euro in Norway to 0.97 Euro in Luxemburg. Switzerland is 1.36 Euro, Germany 1.10 Euro, Poland 1.01 Euro, UK 1.28 Euro.

Pretty much the same? Hardly.

 

[SuisseDriver]

You have good point and thanks to enter in the details.

I don't see how I proved your point at all.

For a start, I didn't compare the purchasing price, I compared the leasing rates - both included our BEV incentives already, so no added bonus for either vehicle, as the 2K Euro grant from the government applies to both.
So when I do compare the leasing rates, the Model S is about 200 Euro more expensive - every month, so about 2.4K Euro each year. Say you have a four year leasing period, you are already 9.6K Euro ahead on the Espace.

I do not understand this one.
In the case of the Tesla, in France for instance, you have 6000€ deduction which reduce accordingly the leasing rate. The Espace does not benefit at all from any deduction as it is a diesel.
In Switzerland, it is different as you do not have to pay a road tax every year (whereas I am paying 788 CHF every year for my diesel car). So the principle remains the same: either it reduces the leasing or in reduces the monthly / yearly operating cost.

I do not have the list of all incentives in every single european country and I am sure some are more interesting than others but incentives are something that you can pretty much expect in many countries for sure.

Then there is the insurance. I just calculated a comparison for both vehicles: the Model S was about 953 Euro a year, the Espace about 523 Euro. So again a disadvantage for the Model S, this time 430 Euro per year or just over 1.7K Euro over a four year period.

That is a good point, insurance for a cheaper car is very likely less expensive. In my case, an Audi A6 3.0 TDI with normal equipment from 2012, the insurance is slightly more expensive than for the Tesla.
If you take a real comparable car like an Audi S7 with matching equipment, the insurance for the Tesla is MUCH cheaper.

But yeah, with the Espace, you may gain in insurance, those 2k over 5 years.

Additionally, there is the service cost. For the Renault, a so called "full service package" is available for about 50 Euro a month, i.e. 600 Euro a year. This includes, as the name implies, everything from wiper blades to a defective gearbox, from MOT to a full engine replacement. Only thing that isn't included is tyres.
Tesla service cost for the Model S is unknown to me. Some here quoted 500K Euro a year, others said 1K Euro a year. I thought leasing would include service costs, so I would say the Model S should return a zero here.

In Switzerland, it is 566 CHF ~ 500€ per year ... if you want to subscribe for it. But you do NOT need as it does not void your warranty.
Here the Tesla maintenance is much cheaper than any other cars, simply because there is no maintenance to be done (aside from changing the oil of the "gearbox" every 4 years).

Also, the standard warranty is 4 years and the warranty for the engine, battery, transmission is 8 years without limit. For the Renault you have to pay extra to get the maximum which is 6 years - 150 000 km for 2700 CHF.

To complete a TCO, I have to add the "fuel" costs for both verhicles. I drive about 10K kilometres per year.
The ADAC measured a realistic fuel consumption for said model of Espace at exactly 6 litres of Diesel per 100km. At the current price level of 1.10 Euro per litre, the fuel consumption would be 660 Euro per year or 2,640 Euro over four years.
Now the S 75D according to the ADAC data uses about 18.5kWh per 100km. At 0.28 Euro per kWh that amounts to 518 Euro per year or 2,072 Euro over four years.

Thanks but you know those numbers are unrealistic.
The Espace 160cv is between 7,5 and >8l in a mix condition. This is real life numbers that I have experienced with a friend of mine that has exactly this car (and the reason why I have chosen this one to make a comparison).
Also, 1,1€ is the cheapest price of the diesel (july 2017). The average of this year in Germany was until now 1,15€/l but yes, it is particularly cheap in Germany. In France, the average is 1,2€ and in Switzerland above 1,35€.
However, you know that we can only expect diesel to be taxed more, it will starts to be forbidden in some cities or you have to pay to have the right to circulate. The trend is not on diesel being cheaper and cheaper.

At last, the Tesla consumption is more 225W/km (average made by my father in a 100D with motorway until 140km/h and city).
And yes, electricity is Germany is ... the 2nd most expensive rate after Denmark. Germany is 50% more expensive than the average in Europe and the 28 other countries are all cheaper except Denmark.

So yes, in YOUR particular case in Germany with 1/ very expensive electricity, 2/ very cheap diesel and 3/ very low mileage, obviously, you gain much less.
But I gave my calculation for Switzerland and France and the gain is very significant if you drive a lot.

And obviously, if you use Supercharger, then, it is free of charge!

So, to sum up:
Over the four year period in my usecase, the Espace saves 9.6K Euro on leasing payments and 1,7K Euro in insurance, or 11,3K Euro in total. Otoh it costs 2,4K Euro more in service costs, 832 Euro in vehicle tax, and 568 Euro in fuel. All in all, the Espace costs exactly 7.5K Euro less than the Model S over four years. Quite a substantial difference, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely. With your profile and specifically in Germany, the gain in diesel / electricity does not offset completely the gain. The resale value largely DOES though (see below).

On the other side, I would argue that, even in Germany, <2k€ per year to drive in a Tesla versus an Espace is still a pretty good deal!
You have a:

• 500 PS car,
  
• with 800l storage,
  
• place for 3 people on the 2nd row,
  
• full options (air suspension, seats-steering wheel heating, glass roof, upgraded sound system, google map navigation, Spotify premium, pack winter, stationary heating-climatisation, leather everywhere and alcantara on dashboard and roof, automatic beam, airbags everywhere including on the rear seats...)
  
• all the latest safety and driving assistance that for some will only be available in limited functionality on the Audi A8 in...2019 ...

So yeah, quite a different car.

And residual value - after four years - for the Espace, which is a relatively new model, is not that easy to calculate, but at 52K Euro list price, I would wager to guess that the residual after four years will be higher that 26K Euro. But even if it wasn't, the abovementioned 7.5K advantage over the Model S leaves room for quite some added depriciation.

The residual value of the Espace after 4 years, 10 000km per year (best case) is 18000€.
But the price we can see on Autoscout for a 4 years Espace DCI 175 are around 17000€.
So you would "loose" 1k€ or be even.

For the Tesla, the residual value after 4 years is 27000€. So if you purchase it back and try to sell it, on Autoscout again, there are ... no Tesla for less than 45000€. So you could potentially gain 18000€ or more.
So here, it is game over for the Espace because it offsets completely the 7,5k€ you estimated for germany.

 

[lux_cars]

Any information/thoughts on what type of autonomy this 2018/2019 e-tron Quattro will ship with?

I really hope it’s more than just the upto 37mph L3 that the new A8 will have. A full-highway speed system with ~70mph will be much more useful.

 

[croman]

I saw a test car of this on the highway. I took a video but it has my music and some shots of my screen that reveals personal info so I won't be sharing it but it was travelling 55mph on I-94 going north. It was raining pretty hard and the engineer had a laptop out that looked connected to the car's center console. It was all camo'd up (black and white swirls). It was definitely an EV because there was no exhaust and it was an audi because it had no chrome rings but had the black plastic spot for it in the front (blank but the circular pattern is unique).

 

[Spidy]

 

[EV-lutioin]

Wow, it looks like every other Audi.

 

[30seconds]

Next time someone says that Tesla is always late we can just use this thread as a reference since it was started in 2015 and we are still waiting for the legendary Audi e-tron to come eat Telsa’s lunch

 

[R.S]

Next time someone says that Tesla is always late we can just use this thread as a reference since it was started in 2015 and we are still waiting for the legendary Audi e-tron to come eat Telsa’s lunch

At least Audi always said 2018. If Tesla would have said 2018 for the 3 and 2016 for the X, instead of 2014, no one would call them late.

There is a difference if I say I’ll come over tomorrow at 8 pm and I’m there on time, or if I say I’ll come tomorrow at 2 pm and let you wait for 6h.

 

[jelloslug]

Next time someone says that Tesla is always late we can just use this thread as a reference since it was started in 2015 and we are still waiting for the legendary Audi e-tron to come eat Telsa’s lunch

The motto for VWs EV division is "Just around the corner!"

 

[Spidy]

Batterie-Geheimnisse des Audi e-tron: Raus aus der Tesla-Falle

 

[gavine]

Batterie-Geheimnisse des Audi e-tron: Raus aus der Tesla-Falle

View attachment 295475

Looks like it has charge ports on both sides of the car. Interesting.