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First real snow experience

The Beast from the East has given me a first real snow and ice experience. P100D MS on Michelin Pilot SS summer tyres. Compared to a previous Range Rover, the straight line traction control is amazingly seamless. Mash in the pedal and the traction control light flashes wildly, but the car just smoothly pulls forward. Seems to have little need to engage brakes to stop wheel spin like the RR did. OTOH, the RR TC did help significantly more while cornering, while the Tesla just slings out wide with no real help from the traction control.
 

WannabeOwner

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Nov 2, 2015
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the Tesla just slings out wide with no real help from the traction control

We fit winter tyres to all our vehicles, and the kids', during the cold months. They are like night and day compared to even AWD. Not just for snow, but also cold wet roads, frosty mornings on ungritted roads, all those types on conditions - i.e. when temperature below 10C and summer-rubber is not soft and malleable

I've driven up an alpine road on packed snow in a FWD with Winter tires. Made effortless progress past everyone on chains, and no trouble stopping, cornering ... or "going" either.
 
If you are running summer tires on ANY car in the winter (like the OP with Michelin Pilot SS) in addition to risking your and others' cars, you have most likely wrecked your summer tires. See https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=220
Puh-lease, enough with the sage winter tyre advice. ;) Am from upstate NY and know all about it. Where I live now, we see significant snowfall that sticks on the road one morning every two years. I don’t even bother with changing the extreme performance ones on my weekend drive. Always a bit cynical about articles from merchants.

I was merely reporting my contrasting experience with the MS traction control compared to an ICE. I now see looking the the manual that it doesn’t actually have dynamic stability control, just traction control for setting off in a straight line - is that right?
 
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WannabeOwner

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Nov 2, 2015
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If you are running summer tires on ANY car in the winter

Interesting article (although I suspect most tires here are closer to All Season than Summer ...) but the problem here is that we only get < 0C daytime MAX, and < -5C overnight, once a decade, so most people don't bother with Winter tyres ...

... we used to always have sports 4WD / AWD "just in case" of Wintry weather, until the first time I drove FWD up the Alps, and then realised that what we actually needed was Winter Tyres rather than AWD :) Dunno why more people don't do it in the UK. Some hassle in swapping the tyres Autumn/Spring (although tyre companies / car dealers will store them ...), but apart from initial capital outlay they both wind up being used 50% of the time and lasting twice as long ... so I reckon its pretty much as broad as it is long, except that the whole Winter safety thing is hugely better, along with avoiding the hassle of having the car off the road because of panel damage from sliding all over the place!

Other plus point, for performance cars like Tesla, is that I have proper Summer Tyres for maximum fun on dry, warm, Summer roads without compromising my ability to get about in Winter when the roads are horrid ...
 
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thefortunes

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Jun 14, 2013
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Puh-lease, enough with the sage winter tyre advice. ;) Am from upstate NY and know all about it. Where I live now, we see significant snowfall that sticks on the road one morning every two years.
So then you know that summer tires are SHOT after being driven on below freezing temps.

Since you know this and still choose to drive on them, I guess I am posting to help those who might read this NOT make the same mistake.
 
[QUOTE="thefortunes, post: 2589492, member: 14399"

Since you are obviously an expert on tire chemistry :rolleyes: .[/QUOTE]
..sorry if I offended you, but there are too many former Camry drivers on these forums offering advice to those who’ve driven performance cars, and dealt with their foibles, for years.

Again - my post was about the TC on the Tesla Model S, and my questions remains - does the car not have Dynamic Stabilty Control or some variant that also helps around corners, or just traction control in a straight line ?
 
We fit winter tyres to all our vehicles, and the kids', during the cold months. They are like night and day compared to even AWD. Not just for snow, but also cold wet roads, frosty mornings on ungritted roads, all those types on conditions - i.e. when temperature below 10C and summer-rubber is not soft and malleable

I've driven up an alpine road on packed snow in a FWD with Winter tires. Made effortless progress past everyone on chains, and no trouble stopping, cornering ... or "going" either.
Couldn't agree more with this - I "discovered" winter tyres about 15 years ago and save for when sheer depth of snow physically prevents forward motion, they are wonderous things indeed! They make everything very boring, and when added to the incredibly boring sure-footedness of the Model S, it made for a very relaxing winter experience.
Considering the contemporary weather patterns of three weeks winter, three weeks summer and forty-six weeks of sprautumn we now seem to have and the comparatively insignificant cost, I find it bonkers to not fit winters from December to April. They cope very well with the warmer spells of weather in that time, yet transform any vehicle in the deep cold or snow.
We only got -7 here in the midlands and perhaps 8" of snow, but having those winter boots on was marvellous :-D
 
Since you are obviously an expert on tire chemistry :rolleyes: .
..sorry if I offended you, but there are too many former Camry drivers on these forums offering advice to those who’ve driven performance cars, and dealt with their foibles, for years.

Again - my post was about the TC on the Tesla Model S, and my questions remains - does the car not have Dynamic Stabilty Control or some variant that also helps around corners, or just traction control in a straight line ?

Great that your Tesla coped well on summer tyres, the traction control is amazing, but winter tyres are still night and day better. Just imagine how awesome your P100D would be in snow on full winter tyres instead of your frost bitten Pilot SSs, lol. I'm not an ex Camry driver by the way, just an ex F1 vehicle dynamicist & race engineer.

To answer your question, of course the Tesla has stability control, but it's going to be of very limited benefit in ultra-low grip situations, you know like super-wide, ultra-low profile, performance summer tyres on snow!
 
Thanks. I was really asking if the MS, in addition to straight line traction control, even has dynamic stability control. No reference to this in the manual. You are saying - yes it does. Good to know.

Yes, of course, winter tires would be much better in those conditions. But even with this year's record low temps and snow, I would have spent more time changing out the tires than needing to use them where I am located. Will probably switch to all-seasons as I had on my original S85 next year, even though the gains would be marginal compared to winters at low temps.
 
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The MS has an open diff plus active individual wheel braking to emulate a traditional limited slip diff and provide stability control via an electronic controller.

Winter tyres would give better grip pretty much all winter up in Manchester. They are not just "snow" tyres. Why pay all that money for the extreme performance of a P100D and then compromise on tyre choice by running full on performance summer tyres in winter or all-season tyres, which are compromised all year round? Remember, tyres are king when it comes to grip and handling. Get a winter set of winter rims and tyres and just swap them at the end of November and again in spring. Job done.
 
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thefortunes

Active Member
Jun 14, 2013
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The MS has an open diff plus active individual wheel braking to emulate a traditional limited slip diff and provide stability control via an electronic controller.

Winter tyres would give better grip pretty much all winter up in Manchester. They are not just "snow" tyres. Why pay all that money for the extreme performance of a P100D and then compromise on tyre choice by running full on performance summer tyres in winter or all-season tyres, which are compromised all year round? Remember, tyres are king when it comes to grip and handling. Get a winter set of winter rims and tyres and just swap them at the end of November and again in spring. Job done.
Maybe he'll listen to you. :)
 

Saghost

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Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,100
Delaware
The Beast from the East has given me a first real snow and ice experience. P100D MS on Michelin Pilot SS summer tyres. Compared to a previous Range Rover, the straight line traction control is amazingly seamless. Mash in the pedal and the traction control light flashes wildly, but the car just smoothly pulls forward. Seems to have little need to engage brakes to stop wheel spin like the RR did. OTOH, the RR TC did help significantly more while cornering, while the Tesla just slings out wide with no real help from the traction control.

I would bet that the Range Rover was on some sort of all season tires, which will provide substantially better grip in the winter that the high performance summer tires on the Tesla. (Though of course not as much as a winter tire.)

That's likely much more relevant to the better cornering performance of the RR than the differences in the stability control programs between the two.
 

WannabeOwner

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Nov 2, 2015
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Suffolk, UK
I'm curious:

We've fitted winter tyres to all our cars for nearly a decade now. But technology moves on ...

Are my assumptions still valid:

Winter Tyres perform better in cold conditions (e.g. below +10C)
than summer tyres? - definitely.
but: than All Seasons?

I have half a thought that I read somewhere that cold, dry, stopping distance is worse on Winters (compared to All Season)

How do Winters and All Seasons compare for "normal UK Winters"? For me that definition is < +10C and wet roads, some ice (i live in the country, so untreated roads in Winter is quite common)

maybe, absent snow, I would find All Seasons and Winters much the same?

But maybe? All Seasons would give me better stopping distance on Cold, Dry roads
and maybe? better fuel economy and less tyre noise then Winters?

Winters have lasted several seasons on all the cars we've owned (no specific mileage figures though ... but none of them are low mileage) and I was fairly astonished that the original 19" tyres that came on the MS lasted 30,000 miles. There was plenty of spirited driving AND Launch Demos when the car was new !

When I had my XR3i, which took a detour to Turbo Technics in Northampton :), I was luck to get 7,000 miles out of a set of P6's ...
 
I'm curious:

We've fitted winter tyres to all our cars for nearly a decade now. But technology moves on ...

Are my assumptions still valid:

Winter Tyres perform better in cold conditions (e.g. below +10C)
than summer tyres? - definitely.
but: than All Seasons?

I have half a thought that I read somewhere that cold, dry, stopping distance is worse on Winters (compared to All Season)

How do Winters and All Seasons compare for "normal UK Winters"? For me that definition is < +10C and wet roads, some ice (i live in the country, so untreated roads in Winter is quite common)

maybe, absent snow, I would find All Seasons and Winters much the same?

But maybe? All Seasons would give me better stopping distance on Cold, Dry roads
and maybe? better fuel economy and less tyre noise then Winters?

Winters have lasted several seasons on all the cars we've owned (no specific mileage figures though ... but none of them are low mileage) and I was fairly astonished that the original 19" tyres that came on the MS lasted 30,000 miles. There was plenty of spirited driving AND Launch Demos when the car was new !

When I had my XR3i, which took a detour to Turbo Technics in Northampton :), I was luck to get 7,000 miles out of a set of P6's ...

Without looking at specific models of winter, summer and all-season tyres, it's hard to say which would give the best grip at a specific moderately cold temperature on a dry road. For example some all-season tyres are biased more toward winter usage and can even have the snowflake symbol. Others are much more marginal on snow and those probably perform a little better in warmer conditions. Summer tyres are quite variable too in their performance on wet and/or cold roads and pretty much all are very poor in snow and ice.

What you can say is that winter tyres are generally better than summer tyres on cold/wet/snowy/icy roads and the worse the conditions, the more advantageous they tend to become. Those are also the conditions where grip levels are likely to become safety critical, so you want the best grip you can possibly get. Where there is an inevitable overlap in performance between different tyre types (typically around 10 degC), grip levels are unlikely to be far less critical. Winter tyres often have better aquaplaning resistance too, which can be very useful. After the snow melted rapidly last week, the roads flooded and caught out at least one local driver who ended up spinning and crashing pretty heavily.
 
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WannabeOwner

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Nov 2, 2015
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Suffolk, UK
Thanks, I'll stick as I am, I've been happy with Winter tyres to date.

I replaced some on an ICE this year, they got the wrong weight rating for the ones I wanted, so given I was there I took some others that they had in stock and recommended - much cheaper ... and also noisier and (subjectively) longer stopping distance, so in future I'll stick to the quality brands that I've used in the past with good economy and noise levels. For an EV the energy-efficiency is important as 10% less range is significant, although in an ICE tyres half the price but 10% less efficient might well still work out cheaper

Bjorn did a winter tyre test video recently, one of the brands he tested was half the price of the others, a bit noisier and (from memory) 7% worse economy ...
 

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