First SCE Bill with Solar- newb questions

[Dee_M3]

Confused solar newb here so bear with me. I just received my first full month bill with solar today and have a few questions. I'm now on the TOU 4-9 plan and my total usage for the month is -84kwh. Bill amount is -$42.21(yay!) but that is because SCE customers get a yearly "climate change credit" and this year I received a $71 credit, so without this credit my bill would've been $28.79. I know NBC's are a given but I'm still surprised that I have usage charges even though I generated more than I used. My current month energy generation credit is at $0. Why is that? Is it because the majority of my solar generation is happening during "super off-peak" times where the rates are at it's lowest?

Also, why is SCE charging instead of crediting my baseline credits with -84kwh usage? Total charge of $8.17

I guess my expectations were set too high after seeing that I actually generated more (for the first time ever) than I used this month. Other than NBC's, I was not expecting to be paying for usage from now on with an 11.2 kw system (140%+ offset) based on the estimates my solar company gave me.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Confused solar newb here so bear with me. I just received my first full month bill with solar today and have a few questions. I'm now on the TOU 4-9 plan and my total usage for the month is -84kwh. Bill amount is -$42.21(yay!) but that is because SCE customers get a yearly "climate change credit" and this year I received a $71 credit, so without this credit my bill would've been $28.79. I know NBC's are a given but I'm still surprised that I have usage charges even though I generated more than I used. My current month energy generation credit is at $0. Why is that? Is it because the majority of my solar generation is happening during "super off-peak" times where the rates are at it's lowest?

Also, why is SCE charging instead of crediting my baseline credits with -84kwh usage? Total charge of $8.17

I guess my expectations were set too high after seeing that I actually generated more (for the first time ever) than I used this month. Other than NBC's, I was not expecting to be paying for usage from now on with an 11.2 kw system (140%+ offset) based on the estimates my solar company gave me.

Please post an image of the bill charges.

 

[Dee_M3]

Please post an image of the bill charges.

Sure thing. I just added a screenshot to my original post.

 

[power.saver]

Confused solar newb here so bear with me. I just received my first full month bill with solar today and have a few questions. I'm now on the TOU 4-9 plan and my total usage for the month is -84kwh. Bill amount is -$42.21(yay!) but that is because SCE customers get a yearly "climate change credit" and this year I received a $71 credit, so without this credit my bill would've been $28.79. I know NBC's are a given but I'm still surprised that I have usage charges even though I generated more than I used. My current month energy generation credit is at $0. Why is that? Is it because the majority of my solar generation is happening during "super off-peak" times where the rates are at it's lowest?

Also, why is SCE charging instead of crediting my baseline credits with -84kwh usage? Total charge of $8.17

I guess my expectations were set too high after seeing that I actually generated more (for the first time ever) than I used this month. Other than NBC's, I was not expecting to be paying for usage from now on with an 11.2 kw system (140%+ offset) based on the estimates my solar company gave me.

Baseline credit is a negative amount times your usage. Since your usage was negative, it becomes a charge (negative x negative is positive). This is normal for NEM with generation.

 

[holeydonut]

I can't wait to see @Redhill_qik 's spreadsheet... I'm sure it'll be easier to understand his spreadsheet than what the utilities put on the bill. Which begs the question... why are the utilities allowed to intentionally make the most BS confusing billing statements imaginable?

 

[Dee_M3]

Baseline credit is a negative amount times your usage. Since your usage was negative, it becomes a charge (negative x negative is positive). This is normal for NEM with generation.

Understood, thank you for clarifying that for me. Kind of a bummer that you get charged for putting energy back to the grid.

I can't wait to see @Redhill_qik 's spreadsheet... I'm sure it'll be easier to understand his spreadsheet than what the utilities put on the bill. Which begs the question... why are the utilities allowed to intentionally make the most BS confusing billing statements imaginable?

I know right?! Makes me despise SCE even more. They want to find every possible angle to try and bill their solar customers.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Sure thing. I just added a screenshot to my original post.

So you NEM billing breaks down like this:

Line Item	Units	Rate	Total
Both - Basic daily charge	30	0.03100	0.93
Month 1 - TOUD Credit for under baseline	-2	-0.09759	0.20
Month 2 - TOUD Credit for under baseline	-82	-0.09716	7.97
Month 1 - Mid Peak Distribution	71	0.26422	18.76
Month 1 - Off Peak Distribution	194	0.22075	42.83
Month 1 - Super Off Peak Distribution	-267	0.20512	-54.77
Month 2- Mid Peak Distribution	35	0.26207	9.17
Month 2 - Off Peak Distributon	210	0.21900	45.99
Month 2 - Super Off Peak Distribution	-327	0.20351	-66.55
		Total Distribution	4.53
Month 1 - Mid Peak Generation	71	0.21755	15.45
Month 1 - Off Peak Generation	194	0.13854	26.88
Month 1 - Super Off Peak Generation	-267	0.11893	-31.75
Month 2 - Mid Peak Generation	35	0.21753	7.61
Month 2 - Off Peak Generation	210	0.13865	29.12
Month 2 - Super Off Peak Generation	-327	0.11906	-38.93
		Total Generation	8.38
Month 1 - NBC (CTC, NDC, PPPC)	332	0.02082	6.91
Month 2 - NBC (CTC, NDC, PPPC)	306	0.02076	6.35
Both - NBC (Fixed Recovery Charge)	638	0.00090	0.57
Both - NBC (Wildfire fund)	638	0.00530	3.38
Both - NBC (DWR bonds)	638	-0.00208	-1.33
		Total NBCs	15.88
		NEM Total for billing period	28.79
		Climate Credit	-71.00
		Total	-42.21

Your import charges are more than your export charges, so your NEM balance grows to $28.79 and with the climate credit your bill is -$42.21, but none of this will be due until your annual true-up unless you have opted to pay monthly if you have a positive balance.

 

[Redhill_qik]

I can't wait to see @Redhill_qik 's spreadsheet... I'm sure it'll be easier to understand his spreadsheet than what the utilities put on the bill. Which begs the question... why are the utilities allowed to intentionally make the most BS confusing billing statements imaginable?

You made me go back and edit my first post , to much work to fix the alignments in the table though.

 

[Dee_M3]

So you NEM billing breaks down like this:

Line Item	Units	Rate	Total
Basic	30	0.03100	0.93
1-Credit	-2	-0.09759	0.20
2-Credit	-82	-0.09716	7.97
1-Mid	71	0.26422	18.76
1-Off	194	0.22075	42.83
1-Super	-267	0.20512	-54.77
2-Mid	35	0.26207	9.17
2-Off	210	0.21900	45.99
2-Super	-327	0.20351	-66.55
		Distribution	4.53
1-Mid	71	0.21755	15.45
1-Off	194	0.13854	26.88
1-Super	-267	0.11893	-31.75
2-Mid	35	0.21753	7.61
2-Off	210	0.13865	29.12
2-Super	-327	0.11906	-38.93
		Generation	8.38
1-NBC	332	0.02082	6.91
2-NBC	306	0.02076	6.35
3-NBC	638	0.00090	0.57
4-NBC	638	0.00530	3.38
5-NBC	638	-0.00208	-1.33
		NBCs	15.88
		NEM Total	28.79
		Climate Credit	-71.00
		Total	-42.21

Your import charges are more than your export charges, so your NEM balance grows to $28.79 and with the climate credit your bill is -$42.21, but none of this will be due until your annual true-up unless you have opted to pay monthly if you have a positive balance.

Thank you for the breakdown, it is much appreciated. So even with a -84kwh surplus for the month, my import charges were higher because the majority of my solar generation happened during super off-peak hours (lowest rate)? I feel like in order to offset this even more, my system would have to generate even more than the -84kwh surplus. Is this normal for this time of year? Will I start to see credits when the weather warms up and I generate during off and mid-peak times?

 

[holeydonut]

You made me go back and edit my first post , to much work to fix the alignments in the table though.

Haha, there's a reason I'm still waiting for your TED talk about NEM billing.

Now do an example of his monthly bill had he been under NEM 3.0 with the 24 (edit: because billing spans 2 months, it's 48) different ACC rates on exports and 5 (edit: 10) TOU import rates. This will show how much he's saving by having snuck into NEM 2.0 hehehe

 

[Redhill_qik]

Understood, thank you for clarifying that for me. Kind of a bummer that you get charged for putting energy back to the grid.

This is an artifact of the E-TOU-D rates where the less you use the more that you save and it is the reverse when you import more than you use, so it offset. Don't worry about it as it balances out.

I know right?! Makes me despise SCE even more. They want to find every possible angle to try and bill their solar customers.

There isn't anything different about the billing for solar customers that isn't also in the billing for non-solar customers. You are just getting exposed to the unbundled rate components of the tariff that isn't seen by the non-solar customers. The NBCs are rate components that are for CPUC programs that apply to all customers and they wanted to make sure that the funding was there to continue to support the programs.

 

[holeydonut]

...

I know right?! Makes me despise SCE even more. They want to find every possible angle to try and bill their solar customers.

You'll enjoy that 500 page NEM 3.0 sticky thread... which discusses how SCE (and the other Joint IOUs) think you aren't paying your fair share and how you're screwing your neighbors and fellow Californians. So they will bill solar customers more going forward with NEM 3.0. Congrats on getting your solar system under NEM 2.0.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Thank you for the breakdown, it is much appreciated. So even with a -84kwh surplus for the month, my import charges were higher because the majority of my solar generation happened during super off-peak hours (lowest rate)?

That's right.

I feel like in order to offset this even more, my system would have to generate even more than the -84kwh surplus. Is this normal for this time of year? Will I start to see credits when the weather warms up and I generate during off and mid-peak times?

That bill was for Feb/Mar period and you were pretty close. Your system will be getting more sun each day and generating more power for your house to consume and while exporting the excess. However, the SCE TOU-D tariffs kind of suck as the lowest rates are always from 8:00am to 4:00pm when the majority of power is being generated from your panels. I think that your system is close to 100% of your annual kWh usage, so I think you will continue to have small-to-medium monthly positive NEM billing due to the price difference for Peak to Super Off Peak.

 

[holeydonut]

That bill was for Feb/Mar period and you were pretty close. Your system will be getting more sun each day and generating more power for your house and to export, but the SCE TOU-D tariffs kind of suck as the lowest rates are always from 8:00am to 4:00pm when the majority of power is being generated from you panels. I think that your system is close to 100% of your annual kWh usage, so I think you will continue to have small-to-medium monthly positive NEM billing due to the price difference for Peak to Super Off Peak.

Yeah, that's why having Powerwalls (or equivalent energy storage systems) can help a homeowner to mitigate this impact. Since the homeowner no longer cares how/when they use energy since they'll power their home with their own solar energy instead of taking from the grid.

At today's energy rates and NEM 2.0, the ROI isn't there for this to be economically useful for you due to the high cost of today's home energy storage options. I only view Powerwalls today as a quality of life thing. So I'm never stuck looking at the clock wondering if this is a "good time" to use electricity. It's total BS the way the Joint IOUs have spent millions to condition people that it's "smart" to look at the clock before turning on an electrical appliances or looking at their watch before they do chores. I don't know why so many Californians are cool with this.

But the upcoming NEM 3.0 economics dramatically favor having on-premises energy storage due to the dramatic difference in value of exported energy vs imported energy. Solar-only installs will soon will be a relic of the past. Well, except for new construction homes where solar is required.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Yeah, that's why having Powerwalls (or equivalent energy storage systems) can help a homeowner to mitigate this impact. Since the homeowner no longer cares how/when they use energy since they'll power their home with their own solar energy instead of taking from the grid.

At today's energy rates and NEM 2.0, the ROI isn't there for this to be economically useful for you due to the high cost of today's home energy storage options. I only view Powerwalls today as a quality of life thing. So I'm never stuck looking at the clock wondering if this is a "good time" to use electricity. It's total BS the way the Joint IOUs have spent millions to condition people that it's "smart" to look at the clock before turning on an electrical appliances or looking at their watch before they do chores. I don't know why so many Californians are cool with this.

But the upcoming NEM 3.0 economics dramatically favor having on-premises energy storage due to the dramatic difference in value of exported energy vs imported energy. Solar-only installs will soon will be a relic of the past. Well, except for new construction homes where solar is required.

CAISO Demand in the summer looks like this

We could build out the demand to support that max load, but that is likely a higher cost than incentivizing people to reduce the load during those peak periods. There are carrot incentives, here's some money if you don't consume, or stick incentives, here's a big bill if you do consume. We have had a lot more stick incentives so far, but we are moving towards more carrot incentives.

 

[Dee_M3]

That's right.


That bill was for Feb/Mar period and you were pretty close. Your system will be getting more sun each day and generating more power for your house and to export, but the SCE TOU-D tariffs kind of suck as the lowest rates are always from 8:00am to 4:00pm when the majority of power is being generated from you panels. I think that your system is close to 100% of your annual kWh usage, so I think you will continue to have small-to-medium monthly positive NEM billing due to the price difference for Peak to Super Off Peak.

Supposedly, my solar company told me, with their fancy spreadsheets and calculations, that I should have around a 2000kwh buffer at the end of the year to offset any increases in energy consumption and all I would be paying are the NBC's each month. I had a feeling he was just telling me what I wanted to hear,lol.

 

[holeydonut]

...
We could build out the demand to support that max load, but that is likely a higher cost than incentivizing people to reduce the load during those peak periods. There are carrot incentives, here's some money if you don't consume, or stick incentives, here's a big bill if you do consume. We have had a lot more stick incentives so far, but we are moving towards more carrot incentives.

I like what Ohmconnect (and similar demand response programs like the VPP) does because it makes lowering energy demand at specific times a very obvious outcome to the participant. It gamifies the benefit for the rate-payer in a way that makes a lot of sense.

The issue with how the IOUs implemented TOU rates is that they use the TOU rate as a gaslighting thing to blame the homeowner for their super high bills. For example, during the last summer heat wave, PG&E had their funny little "town hall" where frustrated ratepayers could phone in and vocalize their issues with a judge who didn't give a *sugar*. But PG&E had to do this forum per CPUC mandate.

Anyways, many of the ratepayers were saying how PG&E was telling them that the high energy bills was the homeowners fault. That if they (at peak time) simply stopped watching TV, turned off the AC, stopped doing laundry, and didn't cook with electricity, then their bill would be lower. But the average homeowner doesn't have hour by hour telemetry from a Tesla app or Emporia Vue or Sense. So even if the homeowner tries to reduce peak usage, PG&E will keep blaming thee homeowner's TOU regardless.

You see the difference? The TOU rates become a gaslighting tool instead of a proper incentive to reduce consumption.

Tiered pricing worked for decades before, since it spread out (edit: pricing for) the duck-curve over the entire day's demand. And high-demanders were presumably using more energy during the peak times... so those folks paid higher rates. Normal people can get behind "I used more energy therefore I paid more."

But with increasingly complicated TOU rates, normal people cannot trace their specific hour by hour behaviors against their bill. This obfuscation allows PG&E to confuse the issue and blame evil solar customers for screwing non-solar customers.

 

[power.saver]

Supposedly, my solar company told me, with their fancy spreadsheets and calculations, that I should have around a 2000kwh buffer at the end of the year to offset any increases in energy consumption and all I would be paying are the NBC's each month. I had a feeling he was just telling me what I wanted to hear,lol.

With longer days, Daylight Saving Time in effect, and clearer skies, you will generate much more than you did in the last billing cycle. You'll start to see those credit add up over the next few months pretty quickly.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Supposedly, my solar company told me, with their fancy spreadsheets and calculations, that I should have around a 2000kwh buffer at the end of the year to offset any increases in energy consumption and all I would be paying are the NBC's each month. I had a feeling he was just telling me what I wanted to hear,lol.

It is relatively easy to compute annual excess kWh by using PVwatts.nrel.gov and adding up your last year kWhs from your billing statements. It is a lot more complicated to analyze your daily and hourly usage data with the daily and hourly PVwatts estimate and then apply the utility TOU billing rates for credits and charges. At least with NEM 2.0 that was a reasonable task, I did it for my system, but NEM 3.0 makes it a really big mess.

Not sure how much 2,000 kWh represent for you, my guess from your single bill is that annual usage is likely 9,000-11,000 kWh, so that is about 20% over. Should get you close to $0, but maybe not all the way there.

 

[holeydonut]

Supposedly, my solar company told me, with their fancy spreadsheets and calculations, that I should have around a 2000kwh buffer at the end of the year to offset any increases in energy consumption and all I would be paying are the NBC's each month. I had a feeling he was just telling me what I wanted to hear,lol.

I think what @Redhill_qik was thinking is that the billing period you posted is close to the Vernal Equinox, which makes the solar production you saw in that month similar to what a break-even month may look like in your climate zone. So if you had a NEM deficit in that near-Equinox month, then you'd expect your full year NEM to be an overall deficit (in terms of dollars) too.

While I can't speak to the motives of your solar company's salesperson, you were actually a net producer in that recent billed period. So it stands to reason your system is a bit over-sized and generates more than you use. It's just as you observed, the value of the generation is less than your consumption.

Also, charging a BEV can change how solar-sales-spreadsheet calcs end up playing out in real life. Many times the installers simply use a snapshot of historical data from the utility, and that snapshot may not be a good proxy for your forward looking energy demand. Some variance is to be expected, but the overall kWh of the solar system each year should be close to what they explained during the sale.