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First Serious Drive in M3 LR.

Peter 224

Member
May 9, 2021
267
194
Salisbury
Our first serious drive in the Tesla today, 188 miles over to near Ferring, on the south coast, for lunch with Mike and Roz at the Blue Bird Cafe (recommended). We started with 93% battery, got back with 34%. Really quite impressive..

The electricity, based on charging at home, cost £6.75… the late and not lamented C63 would have been £50.00 for petrol…. No contest, really!
I drove as I normally drive, without making any concessions in order to maximise range, so on the basis of this mix of Motorway and A roads the car has a realistic range of 320 miles.

At some point the Government is going to have to tax our fuel, or road use, or both. UK tax on fuel is presently 61.5% of the purchase price, so the UK Government is shy about £30 tax... allowing for the 5% VAT on domestic electricity...
 
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Yachtsman

Member
Sep 5, 2020
261
111
Staffordshire
Our first serious drive in the Tesla today, 188 miles over to near Ferring, on the south coast, for lunch with Mike and Roz at the Blue Bird Cafe (recommended). We started with 93% battery, got back with 34%. Really quite impressive..

The electricity, based on charging at home, cost £6.75… the late and not lamented C63 would have been £50.00 for petrol…. No contest, really!
I drove as I normally drive, without making any concessions in order to maximise range, so on the basis of this mix of Motorway and A roads the car has a realistic range of 320 miles.

At some point the Government is going to have to tax our fuel, or road use, or both. UK tax on fuel is presently 61.5% of the purchase price, so the UK Government is shy about £30 tax... allowing for the 5% VAT on domestic electricity...
You could have reduced the electricity cost by about 2/3rds with Octopus go, even better, a real no brainer.
 
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GRiLLA

Member
Jul 5, 2020
841
792
UK
Our first serious drive in the Tesla today, 188 miles over to near Ferring, on the south coast, for lunch with Mike and Roz at the Blue Bird Cafe (recommended). We started with 93% battery, got back with 34%. Really quite impressive..

The electricity, based on charging at home, cost £6.75… the late and not lamented C63 would have been £50.00 for petrol…. No contest, really!
I drove as I normally drive, without making any concessions in order to maximise range, so on the basis of this mix of Motorway and A roads the car has a realistic range of 320 miles.

At some point the Government is going to have to tax our fuel, or road use, or both. UK tax on fuel is presently 61.5% of the purchase price, so the UK Government is shy about £30 tax... allowing for the 5% VAT on domestic electricity...
I don't really see why they would start taxing us. Yes Fuel Duty is a massive influence on the cost of petrol, but even still it only contributes 3% to the total tax revenue of the country. This new proposed tax on companies like Google, Amazon should cover at least half of that.

Fuel tax is like tobacco and Alcohol tax, intended to discourage bad things, not really to generate revenue. The government is funded by Income Tax, VAT, NI, Corporation Tax, Business Rates and Council tax.

Socially I don't see any justice in taxing green travel. There probably needs to be something to reduce the constant increase in numbers of cars on the road, but to me making all public transport free would be far more effective a mechanism achieve that. This isn't that ridiculous, the government spends £17Bn on trains a each year, customers fares total to 10Bn, this could easily generate more than that in revenue.
 

Drew57

Active ember
Apr 4, 2020
1,115
1,351
Chester UK
There probably needs to be something to reduce the constant increase in numbers of cars on the road, but to me making all public transport free would be far more effective a mechanism achieve that. This isn't that ridiculous, the government spends £17Bn on trains a each year, customers fares total to 10Bn, this could easily generate more than that in revenue.
It's not just cars, at university in the 70's two of my flatmates were studying the impact of HGVs on the roads and whether Gov't subsidised rail freight could reduce the amount spent each year on repairing the road infrastructure. ie:

https://citymonitor.ai/transport/heavy-goods-vehicles-are-not-paying-their-way-roads-it-s-time-distance-based-charging-3806#:~:text=The%20standard%2044%20tonne%20HGV,'Generalised%20Fourth%20Power%20Law'.

..."The standard 44 tonne HGV, which is the industry workhorse, causes 136,000 times more damage to road infrastructure than a Ford Focus because the damaging power rises exponentially as weight increases – a phenomenon known as the ‘Generalised Fourth Power Law’...
 

GlynG

Member
Apr 26, 2021
49
91
Wigston, Leicester
@GRi[email protected] - Your clearly playing devils advocate here. You say -
"I don't really see why they would start taxing us. Yes Fuel Duty is a massive influence on the cost of petrol, but even still it only contributes 3% to the total tax revenue of the country. This new proposed tax on companies like Google, Amazon should cover at least half of that".

Really? - Of course the government is going to introduce some tax measures to recover what they loose as the switch to BEVs impact on tax revenues, The massive tax on Petrol/Diesel will diminish substantially as BEVs gain ground - especially as we near the 2030 no new ICE vehicles to be sold date.
It matters not what the overall percentage is that fuel duty generates as overall tax revenue or where you see future tax changes that you feel will plug the gap (Amazon/Google etc) All governments like to generate Tax irrespective of need - they can always justify some expense, they particularly like the secret backdoor methods to generate tax - those stealth methods - its about greed not necessity.

You also have to add the VED aspect - or lack of for BEVs and the substantially reduced servicing requirements of BEVs - Petrol stations and garages have staff, staff have wages, wages get taxed - remove the stations/garages and tax generation reduces, replace filling stations with charging stations and hey presto - no staff needed at all on site.
Charging at home with just 5% tax on energy is unsustainable - all those cheap overnight rates will be phased out, additional taxes will be applied to energy companies, those who have Solar and storage batteries at home effectively charge at nil cost - so absolutely nothing to the chancellor and that wont be tolerated. Just look at the roll out of Smart Meters - what do you think is the reason the government are pushing this forward - Its not to be nice to people by letting them see instantly there energy use and costs, The save absolutely nothing - except for the energy companies who no longer need meter readers (and as readers go there's another stream of tax up the swanney) The whole point of Smart Meters is so when the majority have them variable charging rates can be introduced - so peak demand will see the price per KWhr increase - BEVs predominantly will charge overnight so energy demand will influence the price per KWhr overnight, and no way is the chancellor going to miss out on on the prospect of raising a bit more tax.

Just look at the London congestion charge - Nil for BEVs - as BEVs increased they introduced the £10 annual registration, BIK - being phased out - the government are like Tesco - Every little helps - so if you think they are going to miss an opportunity to replace fuel duty loss then you live in a different world to me. The government look at the long term - they have teams of clever people - you know the university graduates (and obviously relatives of ministers) working on that long term strategy with the aim of extracting tax from people and businesses and so much better if they can do it in a way most of us will never notice - in short they would Tax air if they could get away with it.

You also say
"Fuel tax is like tobacco and Alcohol tax, intended to discourage bad things, not really to generate revenue"

I disagree on this one too - No tax is introduced for the good of the nation, If that was true then simply ban Tobacco and Alcohol - solves the the bad things completely, Whenever the chancellor increases tax on Tobacco, Fuel and Alcohol He/She always state what the anticipated increase will be in revenue generation - therefore there is an assumption demand will not reduce - so where is the discouragement?
To be honest - Let the smokers smoke - the drinkers drink - if these things are that bad then these people will die earlier - and that is an advantage - No pension to pay them, If they were working it creates a vacancy for someone else to pay tax, The funeral services will have plenty of work - and paying taxes.
Everything depends on everything - a sort of balance - and applying that logically that includes tax losses from ICE vehicles being phased out - the tax needs to be replaced - and as sure as eggs is eggs that will happen.

My M3P costs virtually nothing to run, I have Solar and storage batteries - I get the FIT payments for 20 years, the house runs on free electricity for 10 months of the year
the FIT payments more than cover the costs of the other two months of the year when generation is less than consumption - last months electricity bill was £7.20 - most of that charge was the daily charges, The FIT payments were £38.02. So I'm well in profit. When the sun shines by lunchtime the home batteries are at 100% SOC (which runs the house for free for at least 24 hrs)- then i divert the energy to the car which is free of VED and no servicing requirements, I try to export as little energy as i can - but still get paid for 50% of generation as deemed export to the grid and another payment for 100% of the generation just for having Solar.
Prior to Solar and the Tesla my 911 consumed £80 a week in fuel, VED was £550 per annum, Servicing was £600 per year - so just using my figures the government has lost a substantial amount of tax - Its inconceivable this is sustainable, as we move forwards, Tax rules will change, new methods to generate have to be introduced. Its common sense.
 

ACarneiro

Active Member
Jun 20, 2019
1,399
1,122
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK
I whole heartedly agree on your point about government greed.
However, I disagree on two of your points:

1 - You seem to imply that the ancillary jobs lost (garages, petrol stations, etc) will translate into loss of tax revenue. That will only be true if the people are left unemployed and not displaced into other forms of employment. Car mechanics will not go jobless overnight, as ICE cars won’t disappear overnight. Instead, they’ll become fewer and fewer as ICE vehicle numbers decline on the roads gradually. The people who today would pursue a career in being a mechanic will instead choose a career doing something else (possibly something even more tax-generating). This has been a feature of technological advancement since at least the industrial revolution.

2 - “If the government doesn’t like something they’ll just ban it”. Whilst that is obviously an option (many substances are banned, obviously), this is a very fine balance. Governments can’t just ban anything they want, especially substances deeply ingrained in society, lest there be popular revolt. Prohibition didn’t go well. So what they can do is discourage perceived unwanted behaviour (like smoking and drinking) by taxing it. It still gives people the option and freedom to do “the bad thing”, but many will CHOOSE not to, and this choice is crucial for compliance. :)
 
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GlynG

Member
Apr 26, 2021
49
91
Wigston, Leicester
So many variables - how cold it is, how warm you like the inside, are seat heaters in use, lights and fog lights on, do you preheat before taking the car off charge, Is the car garaged. Batteries cant output the same level of energy as temperatures drop therefore true range changes rather uniquely according to your circumstances.
I read that budgeting for a 20% drop in range in the UK is realistic, trial and use is the only way you will know for sure and perhaps increase the charging limit by an additional 10% should see you without any anxiety.
 
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Tinca

Member
Mar 21, 2021
69
75
Lincolnshire
I do agree with @GlynG's post. It is inevitable that the Government will find ways to claw back the losses related to BEV's - mainly fuel and VED. This may be by taxing EV charging on the road - so very much akin to the tax on hydrocarbon fuels now. It may not happen for some time, but I'm sure it will happen as the number of BEV's increase and tax revenue drops.

Grants are already reducing. Expect the OLEV grant to reduce as uptake increases. Benefit in Kind (BIK) is currently 1% and is due to increase to 2% next financial year. HMRC has stated that it will remain at this rate until 2024/25, but, again, as uptake increases and BEV's start to replace ICE as company vehicles, it will increase.

The interesting aspect is how home charging may be affected. We may have two tax rates for domestic electricity - one for charging EVs and another for general domestic consumption. From my limited knowledge, you need a Smart Meter to link into an EV charger if you want faster charging than a basic 3-pin outlet can deliver. Maybe it will be possible for an energy supplier to identify when an EV is being charged?

Another domestic spin may be increased benefits for using the export-to-grid two-way flow option. If you export to the grid from your battery when plugged in, you'll be taxed less for the electricity you consume. This is already happening, but if BEV's increase in number, there is not enough generation capacity to cope - but that's probably another thread!
 
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GRiLLA

Member
Jul 5, 2020
841
792
UK
Really? - Of course the government is going to introduce some tax measures to recover what they loose as the switch to BEVs impact on tax revenues, The massive tax on Petrol/Diesel will diminish substantially as BEVs gain ground - especially as we near the 2030 no new ICE vehicles to be sold date.
It matters not what the overall percentage is that fuel duty generates as overall tax revenue or where you see future tax changes that you feel will plug the gap (Amazon/Google etc) All governments like to generate Tax irrespective of need - they can always justify some expense, they particularly like the secret backdoor methods to generate tax - those stealth methods - its about greed not necessity.
Fewer people smoke these days they didn't introduce a clean air tax. I don't really buy into "governments like to generate tax", there is a need to fund the things we elect them to spend on, lots of evidence shows that they don't have a collective (or even individual) intelligence. I'm not saying that tax revenue will decrease, only move to tax things there is a just reason to influence. I would like to see significant taxation on air travel, legalisation and taxation on cannabis etc.

BIK - being phased out
The current beneficial BIK regime is a specific incentive, a short term bonus like the OLEV grant. It's entirely reasonable that it doesn't last forever, this isn't an example of increasing tax. That's the same as your FIT payments, the scheme was short term, and I think now recognised as being too generous, the economic wisdom of Gordon Brown.

I disagree on this one too - No tax is introduced for the good of the nation
Sugar tax on fat coke as another example

Prior to Solar and the Tesla my 911 consumed £80 a week in fuel, VED was £550 per annum, Servicing was £600 per year - so just using my figures the government has lost a substantial amount of tax - Its inconceivable this is sustainable, as we move forwards, Tax rules will change, new methods to generate have to be introduced. Its common sense.
Only you'll celebrate your saving on transport to buy some more things, holidays, meals out, Tesla accessories, car cleaning products all with VAT. Yes you might save it away, then they'll get it on inheritance tax when you die.
 
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Tinca

Member
Mar 21, 2021
69
75
Lincolnshire
Only you'll celebrate your saving on transport to buy some more things, holidays, meals out, Tesla accessories, car cleaning products all with VAT. Yes you might save it away, then they'll get it on inheritance tax when you die.
There's no 'winning' on the tax take for sure! :rolleyes:
 

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