Fisker Karma

[ecarfan]

I didn't think her review was particularly objective - acutely negative with a specific agenda if you ask me. Say what you will about the overall value and drivetrain but the exterior styling for the most part has garnered significant praise (the original Karma was named one of the most beautiful cars ever).

Hmm...by whom? I think it looks like, well...crap. It's over-styled, exaggerated, and dated looking.

Obviously, aesthetics are largely subjective.

The "value" of that car to me is next to nothing and the drivetrain is laughable in 2017. Actually it was laughable in 2012.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Hmm...by whom? I think it looks like, well...crap. It's over-styled, exaggerated, and dated looking.

Obviously, aesthetics are largely subjective.

The "value" of that car to me is next to nothing and the drivetrain is laughable in 2017. Actually it was laughable in 2012.

ecarfan, you're obviously entitled to your opinion and indeed aesthetics are subjective. That said, your opinion on the Karma styling is squarely in the minority. Just as popular opinion finds (generally) Jennifer Aniston and George Clooney attractive, the reviews of the Karma in 2012 generally praised its styling. I don't have an exhaustive list for you at the ready, but here are a few links I found quickly through the Google:

100 Most Beautiful Cars of All Time

Used Cars For Sale - Appraisals, Used Cars & Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles | Edmunds

The Most Beautiful Cars Ever Built

Also, I disagree that it's drivetrain wasn't in innovative for 2012 - it came out before the Model s by a good 6 months and only faced the Volt as its main competitor. There was no other EV with range extender at the time and the Volt's gas engine was mechanically linked to its wheels unlike the Karma which was purely electrically driven. In 2017, the Karma's powertrain is hardly innovative or efficient - it's amazing what happens in 5 years. But I can tell you having owned (and still own) two Karmas for the last 5 years, it is a competent (though quirky and sometimes finicky) EV. I regularly get 39-44 miles of pure EV driving per charge and on longer haunts, get around 27 mpg on the highway in range extend mode - not terrible for a 4 seater. Could the performance be better? Sure. Could it be more efficient? Sure. But this is 8 year old tech brought to market 5 years ago. Context is important.

It's a shame Karma didn't improve the Revero despite some opportunities to have done so 2 years ago (inside politics and culture killed those).

Bottom line: being a Tesla fan doesn't mean you have to unduly "crap" on other EVs.

 

[ecarfan]

That said, your opinion on the Karma styling is squarely in the minority. Just as popular opinion finds (generally) Jennifer Aniston and George Clooney attractive,

I'm fine being in the minority, but want to emphasize that Jennifer and George are indeed very attractive in my opinion.

Bottom line: being a Tesla fan doesn't mean you have to unduly "crap" on other EVs.

I don't consider the Karma an EV. But to each their own...

 

[SoCalGuy]

I don't consider the Karma an EV. But to each their own...

On this point, this is simply a matter of fact. The propulsion of the Fisker Karma is entirely electrically driven. Fact. Not an opinion.

The simple matter of it being able to draw electricity from a portable battery pack of 20kwh (like the Tesla MS), or from its portable gasoline-based generator (2.0L ecotec) is irrelevant. The argument implicit in your "opinion" re:drivetrain would support someone saying "I don't consider a Model S an EV" because it gets its electricity from coal or nat gas.

An EV is a car that is propelled entirely by electric motors. For the Fisker Karma and the Tesla Model S, this is true, ergo both are EVs.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Just for fun... one of my Karmas. #love

 

[Yggdrasill]

On this point, this is simply a matter of fact. The propulsion of the Fisker Karma is entirely electrically driven. Fact. Not an opinion.

The simple matter of it being able to draw electricity from a portable battery pack of 20kwh (like the Tesla MS), or from its portable gasoline-based generator (2.0L ecotec) is irrelevant. The argument implicit in your "opinion" re:drivetrain would support someone saying "I don't consider a Model S an EV" because it gets its electricity from coal or nat gas.

An EV is a car that is propelled entirely by electric motors. For the Fisker Karma and the Tesla Model S, this is true, ergo both are EVs.

That's one definition. By your definition a diesel-electric train is electric. But really, it's completely irrelevant that the energy goes diesel -> electricity -> propulsion rather than diesel -> propulsion.

The Karma will never be more than a PHEV in my view. Which is fine. PHEVs are better for the environment than pure fossil cars.

 

[SoCalGuy]

That's one definition. By your definition a diesel-electric train is electric. But really, it's completely irrelevant that the energy goes diesel -> electricity -> propulsion rather than diesel -> propulsion.

The Karma will never be more than a PHEV in my view. Which is fine. PHEVs are better for the environment than pure fossil cars.

From Wikipedia:

"An electric vehicle, also called an electric drive vehicle, uses one or more electric motors or traction motors for propulsion. An electric vehicle may be powered through a collector system by electricity from off-vehicle sources, or may be self-contained with a battery, solar panels or a generator to convert fuel to electricity.[1] EVs include road and rail vehicles, surface and underwater vessels, electric aircraft and electric spacecraft."

This thread is feeling more like the comments section on a Fox News article - with people arguing that certain facts and definitions are merely opinion ("the science of climate change is still unsettled", "the world is round is your opinion but for me it's flat"). If you'd like to be precise, you could say that the Fisker Karma is not an "all-electric" or "pure battery" electric vehicle which is totally accurate. Those are subclasses within the EV category.

 

[Yggdrasill]

By that definition a diesel-electric locomotive is an EV. Agree?

(I'm perfectly okay with saying the Karma is *at least* as good for the environment as a diesel-electric locomotive!)

But I'll admit the battle for the definition of "EV" was lost. It is so watered down now that it is useless. The english term to look for is now "BEV".

 

[SoCalGuy]

By that definition a diesel-electric locomotive is an EV. Agree?

(I'm perfectly okay with saying the Karma is *at least* as good for the environment as a diesel-electric locomotive!)

But I'll admit the battle for the definition of "EV" was lost. It is so watered down now that it is useless. The english term to look for is now "BEV".

I think the term EV became appropriated by the BEV folks when in reality it was meant to point to a larger class of vehicles locomoted by electric motors. BEVs are great and thinking about 5 years ago when exactly zero BEVs had ranges approaching 300 miles or more, cars like the Karma made tons of sense because they offered people the only opportunity to drive mostly electric (e.g. work day driving to/from work, grocery store, etc) for about 40 miles without worrying about range or without having a need for a second car for longer trips (e.g. Like going from LA to Vegas or SF). When in range extend mode, you get 24-27mpg which is not the best but also not terrible either. Now that we are in 2017 and M3 looks to offer 300+ mile range for $45K and there are an order of magnitude more superchargers, the calculus has changed and some BEVs make much more sense.

As an aside, what really irks me sometimes on TMC is the fanboy phenomena where people can't acknowledge the strengths and positives of other vehicles and tech because "Tesla is the best" - some commenters (not you) remind me of the posters I see on Fox News messageboards that simply refuse to acknowle basic fact etc. It can be maddening! (And yes, I know that these types of users only are a small fraction of the TMC community but sometimes they are the most vocal!)

 

[ggr]

Take this discussion here: Pure BEV Dogma . Quickly. Please.

 

[RubberToe]

I'm fine being in the minority, but want to emphasize that Jennifer and George are indeed very attractive in my opinion.

I guess you weren't following the thread where Jennifer was spotted on the beach after eating a Cheeseburger...

Model 3 Mule Sightings

 

[TEG]

http://jalopnik.com/the-bewildering-story-of-how-karma-funded-a-spy-car-to-1789675611