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Fisker, Tesla, and their DOE loans

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Yes I believe that Tesla would be in bankruptcy if it were not for the DOE loan. I believe the DOE loan was the main catalyst for major investment in Tesla, the loan is what funded the tooling and purchase of the Nummi factory and Model S as well as new store development.

My (limited) understanding is that the Daimler investment (and order) was enough to keep going. Regarding the Model S development, given that investment from a well-known and experienced car company as a reference, they could have raised capital in other ways. (As Fisker was apparently able to raise a billion, much more than Tesla would have needed.)
 
Yes I believe that Tesla would be in bankruptcy if it were not for the DOE loan. I believe the DOE loan was the main catalyst for major investment in Tesla, the loan is what funded the tooling and purchase of the Nummi factory and Model S as well as new store development.

My guess is Tesla would not be bankrupt without that loan, it would just have to raise money from other sources and Model S would have been delayed (they would focus on power train contracts in the mean time). This is all speculation of course (you can't say for sure they will be bankrupt, I can't say for sure they wouldn't have been).

They would have definitely been bankrupt without Daimler though, which is why Elon says it was Daimler that was critical to Tesla's survival (not the DOE loan).
 
Yes I believe that Tesla would be in bankruptcy if it were not for the DOE loan. I believe the DOE loan was the main catalyst for major investment in Tesla, the loan is what funded the tooling and purchase of the Nummi factory and Model S as well as new store development

Without taking anything away from the ongoing debate I would like to point out that Toyota sold NUMMI to Tesla for $40 million and promptly turned around and bought $50 million worth of Tesla stock so it would not be wrong to think thatTesla effectively bought NUMMI (and some machinery) from Toyota in exchange for issuing some stock to Toyota. Therefore the DOE loan did not go toward NUMMI.
 
Without taking anything away from the ongoing debate I would like to point out that Toyota sold NUMMI to Tesla for $40 million and promptly turned around and bought $50 million worth of Tesla stock so it would not be wrong to think thatTesla effectively bought NUMMI (and some machinery) from Toyota in exchange for issuing some stock to Toyota. Therefore the DOE loan did not go toward NUMMI.

Agreed, but the factory didn't come stuffed full of car manufacturing equipment. The DOE loan was used to fit out the factory.
 
Without taking anything away from the ongoing debate I would like to point out that Toyota sold NUMMI to Tesla for $40 million and promptly turned around and bought $50 million worth of Tesla stock so it would not be wrong to think thatTesla effectively bought NUMMI (and some machinery) from Toyota in exchange for issuing some stock to Toyota. Therefore the DOE loan did not go toward NUMMI.

Tesla was not public at that point, the agreement was for Toyota to purchase 50 million of Tesla stock if they had a successful IPO. Without the DOE loan I am not sure how Tesla would have been able to purchase NUMMI?
 
Tesla was not public at that point, the agreement was for Toyota to purchase 50 million of Tesla stock if they had a successful IPO. Without the DOE loan I am not sure how Tesla would have been able to purchase NUMMI?

The factory would have been purchased regardless of the DOE loan:

Tesla CEO Calls for Carbon Tax | PluginCars.com
Musk further claims that Tesla Motors didn’t need the federal government's loan to survive, but took it to help stage the automaker's initial public offering. As Musk said, the IPO would have occurred anyway, though "it wouldn’t have been as good."

Tesla Discloses Terms for Toyota Investment and Purchase of Former NUMMI Plant - AutoObserver
Tesla Motors says in a regulatory filling this week that it has agreed to pay Toyota Motor Corp. $42 million from the proceeds of its upcoming public offering for the former New United Motors Manufacturing plant and 207 acres of property.
...
Further, the filing shows that Toyota's agreement to invest $50 million in Tesla is contingent on Tesla going public by the end of the year.
 
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So, in short you're saying Elon is wrong about Tesla's abilities without the DOE loan and you are right?

Tesla would not have gotten the DOE loan if it wouldn't be able to survive on its own - wasn't that part of the deal? I personally think that Tesla wouldn't have been able to survive and that some clever accounting gave Tesla a few months of (paper) profit, thus making Tesla eligible for the DOE loan. But Elon could never say that.

It all depends on your definition of "survive". Tesla good have continued in hibernation mode by firing all but a few maintenance guys to keep the roadsters on the road, but I wouldn't call that survival.
 
I personally think that Tesla wouldn't have been able to survive and that some clever accounting gave Tesla a few months of (paper) profit, thus making Tesla eligible for the DOE loan. But Elon could never say that.
Do you have any references/sources you can point to? Similar to the links I gave that described Elon's viewpoint.

I mean, we can all believe what we like, including Elon was lying, but the credibility of a belief gets a big boost from some sort of evidence. An interview with an ex-founder or some such?
 
The purchase of NUMMI by Tesla and the $50 million investment by Toyota in Tesla occurred simultaneously pre-IPO. Here is a reference:
Tesla to buy NUMMI plant, build cars with Toyota - San Francisco Business Times

Tesla IPO: What the Toyota-NUMMI Deal Could Mean for Tesla Cleantech News and Analysis



Tesla Discloses Terms for Toyota Investment and Purchase of Former NUMMI Plant - AutoObserver

Further, the filing shows that Toyota's agreement to invest $50 million in Tesla is contingent on Tesla going public by the end of the year. If economic conditions or other events prevent Tesla from launching its initial offering by Dec. 31, the capital investment deal is subject to renegotiation.

Did Toyota invest 50 million in Tesla concurrently while factory was in escrow, if Tesla never went public they would ask for that 50 million back? Maybe, but I doubt Toyota would take that kind of risk? They would probably wait for Tesla to IPO and then get their 50 million worth? How does Toyota renegotiate after they already gave Tesla the investment?

Edit found this wired link:

Toyota, Tesla Team Up on EVs | Autopia | Wired.com

Toyota is teaming up with Tesla Motors to develop and build electric vehicles, and the Japanese automaker will buy $50 million worth of common stock when Tesla goes public.

This does not take into consideration the tooling costs which were projected to be a "couple hundred million"
 
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"When" is not the same as "if". Also, as far as we know, Tesla going public did not depend on the DOE. Of course, Tesla did spend DOE loan money on investments necessary for Model S, as was the purpose of most of the loan, but that doesn't mean Tesla would not have found other ways to get there even if slower.
 
"When" is not the same as "if". Also, as far as we know, Tesla going public did not depend on the DOE. Of course, Tesla did spend DOE loan money on investments necessary for Model S, as was the purpose of most of the loan, but that doesn't mean Tesla would not have found other ways to get there even if slower.

Yes the IPO vs DOE thing is true but I think the point of contention is would Tesla have had a successful IPO without the loan? In my opinion I do not think the IPO would have been successful. Once private investors see that the government is in Tesla for 465 million it is more confidence inspiring.

If Tesla lost the DOE funds, it is quite possible that they may have not been able to complete the factory/tooling for the Model S. Production would have been pushed back significantly and there would be a mass exodus of Reservation holders (once the release date keeps getting delayed).

Of course there is no way anyone really knows. What we do know is that Tesla got the DOE loan and it allowed them to develop the Model S and put them on the path to success. The DOE loan is what allowed a vast majority of this to occur.
 
My understanding is that the highly successful IPO happened before the DOE loan. I believe Tesla got $200M or so from the IPO. Had the loan not happened, a successful IPO like that should have shown other investors that there was more than just smoke and mirrors.
 
Of course there is no way anyone really knows. What we do know is that Tesla got the DOE loan and it allowed them to develop the Model S and put them on the path to success. The DOE loan is what allowed a vast majority of this to occur.

Kind of agree, especially if you look at Tesla from the perspective of "a small company". Although I see it more as something that needs to happen, the reality of our time asks for it, so there is a high likelihood (though no guarantee) of unexpected doors opening in unexpected moments. (And the DOE door was probably the best, and in my opinion, appropriate door).
 
It all depends on your definition of "survive". Tesla good have continued in hibernation mode by firing all but a few maintenance guys to keep the roadsters on the road, but I wouldn't call that survival.

I think we were arguing if Tesla would have gone bankrupt without the DOE loan. I think they wouldn't have and would just have to rely on power-train contracts (which have been profitable all along) and would have to delay the Model S. They could have still went with the IPO, just with much lower valuation and then buy the Model S equipment afterwards.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Tesla would have reached its current point, in the same time-frame, without the DOE.
 
Factory bought with Loan or Cash On Hand

The factory etc was all purchased with the DOE loans..It was also repeated in revenge of the electric car.

I remember Elon stating, I believe in the Revenge of the Electric Car movie (or read it one the articles on him) that the $30-$40 million (whatever it was) was the offered (and accepted by Toyota) as that's what Tesla had available. The energy.gov article first I heard that the loan bought the factory. I guess probably just matter of timing or we will never really know.
 
The energy.gov article first I heard that the loan bought the factory. I guess probably just matter of timing or we will never really know.
The money came from the IPO. The terms were given in a regulatory filing as noted in this article:
Tesla Discloses Terms for Toyota Investment and Purchase of Former NUMMI Plant - AutoObserver

I suppose one could quibble that the money came from the general pool of operating capital and thus no specific source, but as far as the contract agreement goes on the NUMMI purchase, it came from the IPO.
 
Tesla Timeline

Tesla gets DOE loan June 2009

Tesla purchases NUMMI May 2010

Tesla goes public June 29, 2010


Tesla gets loan approval from US Department of Energy | Press Releases | Tesla Motors




Tesla will use $365 million for production engineering and assembly of the Model S, an all-electric family sedan that carries seven people and travels up to 300 miles per charge. Tesla will use $100 million for a powertrain manufacturing plant. The facility will supply all-electric powertrain solutions to other automakers, greatly accelerating the availability of mass-market EVs. The new facility will employ about 650 people.

Tesla is in the final stages of negotiation for facilities in California.


Believe what you want....
 
Tesla will use $365 million for production engineering and assembly of the Model S, an all-electric family sedan that carries seven people and travels up to 300 miles per charge. Tesla will use $100 million for a powertrain manufacturing plant. The facility will supply all-electric powertrain solutions to other automakers, greatly accelerating the availability of mass-market EVs. The new facility will employ about 650 people.

Tesla is in the final stages of negotiation for facilities in California.


Believe what you want....
The powertrain manufacturing plant mentioned above is the now Palo Alto HQ.

It's unclear to me what's being argued here.
 
The powertrain manufacturing plant mentioned above is the now Palo Alto HQ.

It's unclear to me what's being argued here.

The DOE loans were granted to tesla almost a year before they purchased NUMMI from Toyota....Tesla went public in June 2010.

The department of Energy stated that the DOE funds would go towards the factory, Tesla stated that the DOE loans were used for the factory (press release link)

ELECTRIC VEHICLE MANUFACTURER WILL USE LOANS TO BUILD AN ASSEMBLY PLANT FOR MODEL S SEDAN AND ANOTHER FACILITY TO MANUFACTURE ELECTRIC POWERTRAINS.

I am not sure why people think that the IPO (post purchase of the assembly plant) was the main funding source for NUMMI when the building was purchased over a month before, and Tesla has an article in their press release section, that the DOE loan funded the assembly factory?

Tesla gets loan approval from US Department of Energy | Press Releases | Tesla Motors