TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Five minute charging? Straubel says "yes."

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by DonL, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. ggies07

    ggies07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,252
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, TX
    Great to hear! Thanks for the article.
     
  2. EdinNJ

    EdinNJ New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Finn
    +1

    This would be great for driving, but as the article noted, the real breakthrough would be for power storage to allow solar and wind power to serve base load on the grid more efficiently and effectively, (and power the hyperloop :))
     
  3. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,569
    Location:
    Boston North Shore
    Using batteries at the Supercharging stations has been an interesting plan for some time. The only issue of course is the cost of the batteries, but I wonder if Tesla could use older used batteries that have been swapped or turned in for new ones?
    Batteries certainly lose capacity both due to cycles and time, but if they are cheap enough, there's not a lot of downside to just stacking up more of them for a stationary application. The Li ion aging curves I've seen seem to show a decreasing rate of charge loss over both cycles and time, and with a steady supply of used batteries, perhaps use at Superchargers for a few years could be a step in the battery life cycle before final recycling.
     
  4. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,885
    Location:
    San Luis Obispo, CA
    Mods: Combine two "5 minute charge" threads..............
     
  5. Francis Lau

    Francis Lau P-1456

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Bellevue, WA
    It is funny you mention this, I met a Tesla employee that works in the Fremont factory and he said that they don't waste anything and that they use battery packs that not good enough for the MS for the solar-enabled supercharger stations.
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,041
  7. Vger

    Vger Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
    I also recently heard from a very credible and experienced Tesla employee that the cars are capable of charging a lot faster than the SuperChargers are currently enabling. In fact, he implied that the existing SuperChargers are not yet at their limits-- that they can in principle go above 120 kW. He stated that Tesla is ramping up the SuperCharging gradually to collect data from the cars and their batteries and make sure they are on solid ground each step of the way.

    It is nice to be riding a fast horse in this derby!
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,041
    The superchargers are rated for up to 133kW input if you look at the label (480V*160A*3^0.5). Apparently this is true of both the 90kW and 120kW versions (some people who have taken a picture of the UL label for the older 90kW version say the ratings are the same for both).

    The bottleneck will probably be the battery or the connector/connector wiring as the superchargers can always be upgraded independent of the cars, but those two can't be.
     
  9. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,937
    Location:
    NoVA
    Charging in 5 minutes equates to a 6C charge rate.

    I wonder what changes in battery chemistry will need to be in place to accommodate that... it's pretty aggressive for most lithium ion cells I know about... but it's interesting to contemplate what sort of special sauce Tesla is aware of coming down the pike.

    stopcrazypp's post is on-point I suspect. I'd bet we are close to the limits of what the conductors in current[1] cars are capable of handling at the 120KW rate already...

    ​[1] See what I did there?
     
  10. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,476
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Does anyone know what the wire gauge is on the cables from the charge port to the battery? (The DC connectors). This would tell us the maximum current that can go through and figure out the max power that can be delivered based on the battery voltage.
     
  11. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    3,709
    Location:
    So Cal
    This is all great news, but I'll just be happy when Tesla finally delivers on 120 kw supercharging. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
     
  12. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,937
    Location:
    NoVA
    Can't see the designations, but some pics of it are visible on Al Sherman's Charge Port thread.

    While beefy, I'd guess that they aren't large enough to handle much more than the 300ish amps or so that a 120KW supercharger is likely to supply...
     
  13. Beckler

    Beckler Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Canada
    Current lithium polymer batteries for r/c can handle at least 12C charging. That property however seems tied to cells with high discharge rates also (up to 50 or 70C) - and to increased weight as well. I'm pretty sure the tesla panasonics aren't designed for that sort of discharge rate. :D But at least we know it is possible, today, albeit at likely reduced energy density.

    Also 6C rate for example wouldn't yield 5 min full charge. Current tapers off rapidly after a point. I would think you would actually need around 12C rate for a 5min full charge.
     
  14. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,937
    Location:
    NoVA
    Ah yes... Good point about the tapering... Although Tesla seems to refer to the 90KW SC's as being able to charge the car in "about an hour", so perhaps George is using "idealized" numbers... :)
     
  15. bollar

    bollar Disgruntled Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,242
    Location:
    Southlake, TX
    Yes. I think Tesla considers an optimal charge to be ~80% at the Supercharger. On the new SC page, they mention that charges beyond 80% are much slower than the first 80%.
    Supercharger | Tesla Motors
     
  16. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Isn't 1 hour divided by 5 minutes equal to 12, not 6?
    i.e., shouldn't you need at least 12C to get from empty to full in 5 minutes?
     
  17. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,041
    You are correct, but Straubel actually said 5 to 10 minutes, so it's 6C-12C.
     
  18. metafor

    metafor Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    If they plan battery upgrades to denser cells, they could charge at the same rate for each cell and double the charge rate. I'd love to be able to swap out an 85kWH battery for, say a 100kWH battery with twice as many cells.
     
  19. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,937
    Location:
    NoVA
    Right you are... as stopcrazypp states, he mentioned 10mins as the upper limit, and that's what my feeble brain latched on to despite what I wrote. Thanks. :eek:

    So a 12C charge rate is even MORE aggressive... will be interesting to see if that actually develops
     

Share This Page