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Fixing the issue with emergency vehicles?

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,498
8,644
Visalia, CA
NHTSA also asks why Tesla didn’t recall Autopilot for its tendency to crash into parked emergency vehicles...

Tesla does not view colliding with parked vehicles as a defect because it works as designed. Human drivers are designed to watch the road and deal with those cases. Thus, Tesla does not see there's a need for "recall" but there's a desire for advancement and progress in the form of firmware updates.
 
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Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,498
8,644
Visalia, CA
Does not sound like a winning argument with NHTSA :)

It takes some education.

When engineers design a fan to be powered by 120V, and a guest electrician traveled from where 240V is a norm just wired that fan to 240V and the fan caught fire and the whole house went up in flames.

When the fan and house are on fire because the electrician plug that fan to 240V, the 112V-fan works as designed.

It works great for 120V and can kill at 240V. That's how it's designed.

It's hard to argue that fire and death as the result of "it works as designed" but that is the truth!

Same with a knife. Holding it on the wrong way can be disastrous but that's how it is designed.

Same with parked cars and Autopilot.
 
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Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,498
8,644
Visalia, CA

I agree with NHTSA about the problematic NDA issue. It's crazy that when people pay for a product, service... they are not allowed to give a bad review.

Customers are not employees. It's actually the reverse: Payers are bosses and Tesla is not supposed to criticize their customers for driving to a school or a (morally objectionable) casino.

It's fine if FSD is only in the hands of employees but once they are in the hands of paid customers, NHTSA wants to protect their rights to voice safety issues.
 

hamoneaster

Member
Jun 7, 2020
107
131
Kansas
I agree with NHTSA about the problematic NDA issue. It's crazy that when people pay for a product, service... they are not allowed to give a bad review.

Customers are not employees. It's actually the reverse: Payers are bosses and Tesla is not supposed to criticize their customers for driving to a school or a (morally objectionable) casino.

It's fine if FSD is only in the hands of employees but once they are in the hands of paid customers, NHTSA wants to protect their rights to voice safety issues.
Shiiiid. TSLA can pay every FSD tester $1. We are now employees testing and improving FSD. GTFO NHTSA....and find a better acronym.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,498
8,644
Visalia, CA
Shiiiid. TSLA can pay every FSD tester $1. We are now employees testing and improving FSD. GTFO NHTSA....and find a better acronym.

$1 is a violation of California minimum wage but you got the point that Tesla could have paid testers properly so they can become hired testers.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,124
2,596
Orange County, CA
It takes some education.

When engineers design a fan to be powered by 120V, and a guest electrician traveled from where 240V is a norm just wired that fan to 240V and the fan caught fire and the whole house went up in flames.

When the fan and house are on fire because the electrician plug that fan to 240V, the 112V-fan works as designed.

It works great for 120V and can kill at 240V. That's how it's designed.

It's hard to argue that fire and death as the result of "it works as designed" but that is the truth!

Same with a knife. Holding it on the wrong way can be disastrous but that's how it is designed.

Same with parked cars and Autopilot.
When idiots don't RTFM and the myriad disclaimers about HOW AND WHERE TO NOT USE TACC, it's on them.

That person who loses their finger tip to a mandolin cutter can't go and sue the manufacturer. Using it as designed (and following the WARNINGS) does not create a safety hazard. Using it wrong, like with dumb cruise control, TACC and AP, results in consequences for the driver.
 
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t3sl4drvr

Member
Sep 24, 2017
185
234
USA
I think a lot of this still echoes back to Tesla's stubborn use of the terms "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving."

I think it has been brilliant
  • FSD vision and story was a bold game-changer.
  • That story sold cars and allowed them to operate with 0 marketing. (I certainly was one that bought into that)
  • They came so close to going belly up with Model 3 manufacturing problems that I would argue that without FSD branding they would be dead.
That said - FSD is deceiving and will end costing them a lot. That is ok - they won already and are able to pay their "debts".
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,124
2,596
Orange County, CA
Well they can be independent contractors. Then if a FSD tester wants to contract for $1, they can. Lol
In California, to be an "independent contractor" requires a test against several parameters (e.g., degree of control over the IC/emp), and if any one of the parameters is not met, that person is an "employee."
 

TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
157
178
L.A.
I agree with NHTSA about the problematic NDA issue. It's crazy that when people pay for a product, service... they are not allowed to give a bad review.

Non-employee FSD beta testers didn’t sign an NDA. We can say whatever we want (and testers have been)
 

t3sl4drvr

Member
Sep 24, 2017
185
234
USA
Non-employee FSD beta testers didn’t sign an NDA. We can say whatever we want (and testers have been)

Sure about that? I recall that the selected (100 or so) closed beta testers who got access to beta in 2020 did have to sign NDA. Those FSD beta testers were non-employees.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,498
8,644
Visalia, CA
Non-employee FSD beta testers didn’t sign an NDA. We can say whatever we want (and testers have been)

Sure about that? I recall that the selected (100 or so) closed beta testers who got access to beta in 2020 did have to sign NDA. Those FSD beta testers were non-employees.

The nature of NDA is the public usually is not aware that there's even an NDA.

Then, there's a Freudian slip from Elon Musk:


So it looks like volunteers used to have an FSD NDA prior to the investigation.

After the investigation started, although no more new NDA was implemented, it's still unknown whether Tesla has withdrawn those older NDA and let them expired or not.
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
157
178
L.A.
Sure about that? I recall that the selected (100 or so) closed beta testers who got access to beta in 2020 did have to sign NDA. Those FSD beta testers were non-employees.
I was referring to us that received FSD beta a week ago. We are not employees and didn’t sign an NDA. The comment I was responding to seemed to imply safety issues with FSD beta couldn’t be reported publicly and I was rebutting that. Even before last week, there were at least some FSD beta testers (e.g. - YouTubers) that were free to report on issues/problems if they wanted (and have). Even if there was a group of NDA bound FSD beta testers, there were non-bound testers that could report anything.
 
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