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Flagstaff-Phoenix-Flagstaff

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by dweeks, Sep 6, 2014.

  1. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    I am many, many hours into researching a Model S. I've driven one at the Scottsdale galleria. I have checked out evtripplanner very carefully. I know that the Cordes Junction supercharger will go live before I would ever take delivery of a Model S.

    I'd like feedback on the feasibility of the following:

    I work at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport. From Mid May to late September I live in Flagstaff. The driving distance to KPHX is 151 miles, so 300 round trip. The net altitude change is just over 6000' (evtripplanner knows this).

    I want to be able to leave Flag with a range charge, drive carefully to KPHX, be gone for a 4 day trip, returning on the evening of day 4. I am fine with stopping at the soon-to-be-opened Cordes Junction supercharger for a top-off. It's 85 miles from Cordes to the Flag house, so I would charge to about 130-140 miles range to account for the big climb out of the Verde Valley, and the slow uphill after that.

    I am NOT OK with having to charge the car to get to Cordes Junction from the airport.

    evtripplanner shows this for Flagstaff-KPHX-Cordes Junction:
    riving Time3:32
    Total Energy Used69.7 kWh
    249 RM
    Average Efficiency299 Wh/mile
    Net Elevation Change-3375 feet
    Is this enough reserve? I really don't want to have to stop at, say, Anthem, and use a Blink charger to get to the Cordes Supercharger! I'm willing to incur the Supercharger stop, but not that PLUS a J1772 stop right after leaving KPHX.

    Yes, there are two Blink chargers at Terminal 4, but I have to park in employee parking, and those lots don't have chargers.

    Is my plan to do FLG-KPHX-Cordes Supercharger realistic?
     
  2. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    So 151 miles from house to work
    If you are dropping 3375 feet from house to work, you should be able to have 100+ miles left.
    When you park the car, put it in power save mode for 4 days to minimize vampire loss.
    When you get back, drive north and see how much range you're using. If you think it's not going to be enough, there's a Blink at the Outlets of Anthem. Should give you 15mph charge, if they're working.

    Also, while you're gone, don't check your car by firing up the app. Every time you do that, it wakes up from its energy saving state.

    Good luck!
     
  3. TES-E

    TES-E Member

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    Rather than range charge before leaving Flag, why wouldn't you start with a normal 80-90 percent charge and hit Cordes Junction on the way to PHX. this would give you a much higher SOC at the airport. Then hit Cordes Junction on the way back and charge up enough to get home?

    Besides, if you range charge before starting down the hill, you will significantly limit your regenerative braking.
     
  4. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    "soon-to-be-opened Cordes Junction supercharger" ;)
     
  5. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    Good suggestion about power save mode. I'll have to learn more about that.

    Actually, the net altitude change I posted is the total delta from Flag to KPHX and then back uphill to Cordes Junction.

    I am at 7200 MSL in Flagstaff, and the airport is 1132, for net drop of -6068 ft. It's not all downhill, as you descend into the Verde Valley, and have to climb back out

    This is how Green Race plots it:

    - - - Updated - - -


    That is an option, but I would REALLY like to make the round trip with only one recharge.

    I am currently driving a Ford Fusion Hybrid. I get about 51-53 miles per gallon on the drive down the hill. On the long downhills, the regen tops off the battery very quickly, and then does nothing (effectively) until the ICE kicks in when the descent ends.

    I would think that I would use the "low" regen setting on the long downhills, as the regen braking that I saw on the test drive was pretty emphatic. I would think it would cause me to slow down, even on the 6-7% downgrade entering the Verde Valley.
     

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  6. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    First of all, always leave regen in "normal"; if you want less regen, then just push the accelerator pedal a little bit, the same as you would on a gentle downhill with an automatic transmission. Feathering the regen becomes second nature, and it's always better to regen than to heat up the brakes.

    As for your charging during your 3.5 days in Phoenix, just find a 15-Amp, 120-Volt, 3-prong outlet. A 15-Amp, 3-prong outlet will charge your Model S at 50 range miles per day. It sounds like you are going to leave it parked while in town, so just find a place to park near a 3-prong plug. If you gather those extra miles, you can also enjoy the Tesla on a few of those evenings in town.

    With a 3-prong in Phoenix, this mission should be a no-brainer in an 85, and probably very doable in a 60.
     
  7. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I've done the Flag-->PHX run, and I can envision you utterly giddy at doing it on a consistent basis. So much fun watching those miles pile up and the Wh/mile #s going down...down...down.

    Traveling the other way....well, you'll be doing a bit of grimacing every now and again, given that uphill grind.

    The only other comment I have is:
    Ha!
     
  8. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    If I play it cool, and drive, say, 55 from Sky Harbor to Cordes, do ya think I'll have an adequate reserve?

    When I charge in Cordes, I plan to add enough juice to be able to finish the last 85 (140 with RV for the uphill) miles at 80 MPH! That should not take more than :30 of Supercharging, I think.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'm an airline pilot (US Airways soon to be American), and I need to park in an employee lot when I 'm gone (out of PHX) on my trips. I usually do 4 day trips to reduce the number of drives from either Flag (summer) or Tucson (winter). No electrons in my employee parking lot that I know of. US Airways does have a J1772 in the Training Center on Buckeye than I could use, but I really want to charge only once per round trip. I'd rather drive 50-55 from KPHX to Cordes Junction than charge twice going north.
     
  9. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    The answer is that it's pretty close. I drive my MS close to the edge, but this is too close for comfort if you hit headwinds, rain, etc.

    If you stopped in Cordes Junction for a little top up on the way to Phoenix, you would probably be fine. All you need to add is 30-50 miles; my calcs on EVTripPlanner say it's 169 rated miles Cordes->PHX->Cordes. I like at least 15% margin in rated miles over EVTripPlanner for comfort, and in your situation, I might go for 20-25% until you get used to the trip. That means you only have to charge to 200 or a little more, still very fast on the Supercharger. I bet that by the time you find the bathroom, get a cup of coffee, and get back to your car, you will have added enough miles.

    Having owned an MS for almost 2 years and driven this route in it, I would use an MS on this commute in a heartbeat. :cool:

    For a little insurance, I would buy the dual chargers; that way if you need a few miles, it's easy to stop by the Scottsdale showroom and top up on their HPWC's. For a few miles, I am sure that will be quicker and more comfortable than an out an back to Buckeye.

    Finally, don't overlook the 3-prong plug. Your company (whatever it may be) may just spring for some 120 Volt outlets in the parking lot for you and others like you.
     
  10. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    Dual chargers are for certain!

    I think I'll have to try it conservatively (top in Cordes going south for 20 minutes) first, then try it without the southbound stop. I would drive 55 until such time as I have Cordes (going north) in the bag. I'd have to make the call by Anthem, as that's the last charger until you crest the mesa before you get to Cordes.

    It's too bad I can't rent a 85 Model S to actually TRY THIS FOR REAL (shouting mine).

    As I mentioned to another poster, I'll crawl northbound to avoid having to charge southbound. These are "going to work" trips, and not sightseeing. I don't plan for leisurely charging stops. I can roundtrip this in the Fusion hybrid and still have 125 miles of range left when I get back to Flag, going 70 all the way up and down.

    I want the Model S, but the idea of of a stop each way is off-putting.

    I can't imagine the Tucson KPHX Tucson round trip (106 each way 212 total) without stopping would be a problem at all.
     
  11. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    I am sure that you will do fine. You are a pilot and used to doing flight planning with fuel reserves. Planning a trip in the Tesla is very similar.

    A few thoughts and ideas:
    1. In all but short ups and downs, driving a constant speed up and down hill is least travel time for a given battery energy. Set the cruise control and enjoy the view on that great route!
    2. The rough conversion for the potential energy of altitude is 6 rated miles per 1,000 feet.
    3. With a Supercharger on the route, it can often be less total time to drive quickly and charge at the Supercharger than to nurse the car along in the slow lane and bypass the Supercharger. Besides, even if it's the same time, driving quickly is more fun.
    4. Keep a log of driving style, miles added at Cordes and miles remaining on return. After a few experiments, you will know what works best for you.

    Enjoy a Tesla! With a some solar panels on your house(s), you can commute (and all your Tesla driving) can be net-zero, solar!
     
  12. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

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    You are getting some good tips from other responders -- but you haven't had any real-world input from us locals.

    I live in far-north Scottsdale, my old office was in downtown Phoenix (<5 miles from PHX), and we've done the drive up to Flagstaff and back in our 60. This isn't exactly the route you would go, but the actual RM use info should be helpful and should help validate your estimates from EVTripper (which in my experience is a really good estimate).

    From my house to the old office in downtown Phoenix is a ~1400 foot elevation drop over 28 miles. I'd typically use 20-21 RM on the way in, and about 38-39 RM on the way home -- so the round trip was normally 1-2 RM above the actual RM.

    From our house to the Flagstaff Supercharger is 129 miles. But we used 186 RM going up -- drive the speed limit for all but the last ~20 miles (we sped up to 5 over when we hit pine trees and it was clear we had more than enough range to make it). The return trip used 134 RM going 5 over the limit.

    Cordes Junction is 56 miles from our house. Going north, we used 80 RM at 5-10 over the limit, return was 56 RM at 5 over.

    So to put that into your trip (not exactly the same routing) I would get:

    Flagstaff to PHX = 129+28=157 actual miles. RM use would be 134+20=154 (driving ~5 over).

    PHX to Cordes Junction would be 28+56=84 actual miles. RM use would be 39+80=119 RM

    That suggests you'd use 273 RM over the route -- at 5 over the limit. Driving the limit would likely save you ~20 RM -- so that would be pretty close to your EV Tripper estimates. But either way, that does not leave much of a reserve.

    Also keep in mind that weather -- high or low temps, wind and rain can impact your range further -- so you definitely want to have some reserve.

    With all that in mind, I'd recommend charging at Cordes Junction in both directions. A 15 min stop on the way down would likely add 40-50 miles (you'd be at ~60% charge, so already in the taper). That would be more than enough buffer/reserve to make sure you get back, and a lot faster of a stop than hitting the slow Blink charger in Anthem (which will add 12-15 miles per hour of charge...). At least do that on your first couple trips until you get comfortable about exactly how much range you use -- and that will help you determine how much to charge or if you don't need to stop at Cordes heading south...
     
  13. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    Thanks for the outstanding info!

    If I were to drive 55-60 each way, how much extra range would I get, in your experience?

     
  14. NoMoGas

    NoMoGas Member

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    Enterprise rent a car at PHX rents the Model S. Also, no reason to crawl down to PHX (In fact if you jumped on it you'll always charge faster then your speed can discharge). Ive taken this exact trip, You'll be fine. May need to take it a bit easy on the way up, but you'll be fine.
     
  15. invisik

    invisik Member

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  16. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    Like I said, planning an optimum Tesla road trip is very much like flight planning. The only difference is that the time overhead for a stop is way less to visit a Supercharger than to land and refuel, and EVTripPlanner is equal to or far better than any flight planning tool for fuel (battery) use estimates.

    Let's us EVTripPlanner to answer your question. If I put in everything generic including a speed multiplier of 1.0, except a 19"-Wheel, 85, then it takes 3:12 total to go Flagstaff->PHX->Cordes, using 248 rated miles at an average speed of 68 mph and typical I-17 speeds of 72 mph. The speed multiplier is a multiplier on average speed of Android phones on this route. If we change the speed multiplier to 0.81, then it takes 3:57 to cover the same distance, using 198 rated miles at average speed of 55 mph and a typical I-17 speed of 58 mph.

    FLG-PHX-Cordes 68-72.png FLG-PHX-Cordes 55-58.png

    The rated miles used has gone down by 50 by slowing from 72 to 58 on I-17, but the trip now takes 45 minutes longer. If you started in Flagstaff with a range charge and then topped up to 200 or so rated miles in Cordes, I would estimate it would take you 5 minutes to get on and off I-17, and in 15 minutes charge time, you could add 50 rated miles at that state of charge, for a total of 20 minutes. This is an excellent example of what I said earlier, that it is often faster to stop at a Supercharger than to drive slower; especially what seems to be a really fast on/off at Cordes. By stopping, you can get the extra 50 rated miles of margin in the battery by driving for 45 minutes at a painfully slow speed, or you can drive like the wind, take 20 minutes total for a stop in Cordes, and have 25 minutes less total time in the trip!

    Cordes.jpg
     
  17. Blossom

    Blossom Member

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    Maybe I'm missing something here.

    Why not drive down to Phoenix, do your flight, then drive to the Scottsdale mall and use the Supercharger at the Tesla Gallery? You'd probably have better options for using the 30 charge time as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ah... the Tesla Gallery is not a supercharger, but just a regular HPWC.
     
  18. dweeks

    dweeks Member

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    Thanks for the advanced tips on evtripplanner. I was not sure what the speed multiplier meant.

    So, it looks feasible to depart Flag with a range charge, drive 70 down the hill, not charge in PHX, and top off in Cordes on the way back. That's what I am hoping to do. I think 20+ minutes of charge will add enough to get me back (85 miles) at 70 mph, and then still have decent reserve. If things went south going north (grin) I could pull into the Flagstaff supercharger getting off I-17. I'm 7 miles north of it.
     
  19. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

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    Cottonwood was suggesting a stop at Cordes Junction on the way down... I agree with that recommendation. Will add 15-20 min to the drive and no worries about making it back up to Cordes when you get back.

    Plus, the limit on I-17 is 75 most of the way and traffic easily flows 80-85. Driving 70 is under the limit, and we'll under the flow of traffic...

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Blinks at the airport are almost always blocked by Volts that plug in for their entire trip...

    Sky Harbor doesn't officially support 120V charging, but there are some outlets in the garages... Don't know about the employee lot though...
     
  20. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    I certainly recommend planning a stop at Cordes in your schedule on the way down, at least for the first few runs. Until you figure out your fuel burn, your driving style vs EVTripPlanner, how thirsty the PHX vampire is, etc, it better to keep a little more reserve. As you do this trip many times, you will learn how close to squeeze the margin.
     

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