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Fool Cells and Toyota or Kia promotion of them as competition to Tesla

Discussion in 'Technical' started by Ludus, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. Ludus

    Ludus Member

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    I am noticing an increase in business articles picking up on Toyota, Kia and allies PR releases suggesting they will compete with Tesla using hydrogen fuel cell based vehicles. Since these are serious companies they are taken seriously. There also seem to be online fans who vigorously support the potential of fuel cells as an alternative.

    Any good sources of well documented analysis to counter this?

    I strongly agree with EM's "fool cell" and "marketing BS" take on this and the reasons seem obvious but I'm not aware of any good references that set out the case.

    There has been a dream of a hydrogen economy for a century based on the possibility of electrolyzing water to produce hydrogen. It's still not a cost effective realistic technology. Effectively all hydrogen used for fuel for the foreseeable future will be produced from natural gas or other fossil fuel sources. Expensive and difficult to handle and store compared to the methane it's made from. It's a lot less wasteful to just burn the methane in ICE vehicles than go through the environmental PR theatre of making hydrogen out of it so you can play at having a zero emission vehicle.

    The world already has electric grids in place that are all the infrastructure battery electrics need. There is nothing at all in place to deliver hydrogen anywhere.

    FCV's are BS. They are completely disingenuous nonsense. They have no hope whatever of competing in any real sense. Yet very credible companies (and apparently Japanese government agencies) are making these claims and people are believing them.

    Any good sources to reference to counter this?
     
  2. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Read Julian Cox's analyzis on this. Just use the search function and you will find his thread on this with a few very detailed posts that dissects this issue to the bone, from a technical, environmental and economic stand-point. (Spoiler: his conclusions are the same as your's and Elon's)

    It's in this thread I believe: Competing technologies to BEV
     
  3. Ludus

    Ludus Member

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    Thanks. Great piece by Julian Cox.

    i think this will get bigger as it seems to be a major PR response to Tesla that business sources have picked up on. As a cheap natural gas driven pseudo-environmental response it can do real mischief. It already soaks up government money that could be going to something real. It misdirects the public's understanding of the issues, making it seem that there are alternatives and a contest when there is nothing of the sort.

    This sort of thing needs to be much longer form and more detailed.
     
  4. Reykjavik

    Reykjavik Member

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    On the bright side, when the reviews come in showing their $70,000 per car PR stunt as a mediocre vehicle, and Tesla comes out with a $35,000 lightning bolt of awesomeness, BEVs will look damn good in the comparison.

    Car manufacturers acknowledging that gas is not sustainable is great in its own right. The impression of gas as obsolete will grow, and then it will be down to BEVs and FCVs, and we know how that one will turn out.
     
  5. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    We hope we know how it will turn out. All it will take is for the auto and oil industries to buy a few legislators and have them make laws that will make BEVs impossible. Think that can't happen? Just look at what the religious right has done to women's rights--they even bought the Supreme Court.
     
  6. theapple

    theapple Member

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    Left to their own devices, I would fret about the automakers abandoning BEV's (again) for FCEV's given the way they maintain the status quo. But I have high hopes that the competition from Tesla will keep them honest, since BEV's and PHEV's are superior in performance, cost, environmental impact, and convenience.
     
  7. Ludus

    Ludus Member

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    I wish the technical arguments were enough, but the sense that fuel cells can seem like a valid solution on the surface (They just emit water vapor!) makes them a threat if major economic forces back them. Both major car companies and the natural gas industry (maybe even the coal industry since coal gasification hydrogen is cheaper and more developed than electrolyzing water) may get behind this.
     
  8. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    I think it will be more like the tobacco industry... yes, they will fight for hydrogen, but ultimately will export their business to the third world as the first world market declines.
     
  9. adiggs

    adiggs Active Member

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    To be clear Tony, and I think I understand what you're thinking - you're thinking that the ICE car makers will export their ICE cars / engines to the third world, correct? I tend to think the same - with the BEV cars chasing them from country to country. The critical difference, thankfully, is that cars don't create a chemical dependence, making the "stickiness" of cars vs. tobacco much lower :)

    Here's hoping we see another instance here of third world countries skipping a generation or more of technology evolution and going straight to the state of the art.
     

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