For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[StealthP3D]

So AWD (with 980) vs P3D-, power wise, the only difference is software because the hardware parts are literally the same part numbers.

Why do you keep knowingly spreading false info?

We know for a fact the CEO told us the Performance drive units tested out with higher capabilities and this was confirmed by a TMC member who toured the factory and was explained the binning process by one of the Tesla employees. Now they even have different part numbers which should be the final nail in the coffin of this bad rumor.

The silicon carbide drive inverters were part of this binning process to separate out the Performance capable units from those destined for AWD (non-performance models). I'm not sure why we have to go over this every few months. All the info is in earlier posts in this thread.

 

[Sophias_dad]

What reason would Tesla have for not offering the upgrade if it were nothing more than software?

At this point, not much.

Their only exposure is to the anger of the people who paid significantly more than the upgrade price for their P3D- or P3D+. Since you can now get a stealth P3D straight from the factory I'm not sure that the P3D- buyers have much standing to complain, and the P3D+ folks paid for a lot more actual changes than the wee bit of acceleration.

When I was configuring(initially), P(what would eventually be called P3D+) was a ~$20k add on, and a nonstarter. It came with lots of stuff I didn't want, and didn't want to pay for. That quickly changed when (presumably) P3D+ was not selling, splitting it into + and -, and the ensuing $5k refunds. I'm sure there are a bunch of threads about this dark period in the 3's sales life.

 

[OCR1]

At this point, not much.

Their only exposure is to the anger of the people who paid significantly more than the upgrade price for their P3D- or P3D+. Since you can now get a stealth P3D straight from the factory I'm not sure that the P3D- buyers have much standing to complain, and the P3D+ folks paid for a lot more actual changes than the wee bit of acceleration.

When I was configuring(initially), P(what would eventually be called P3D+) was a ~$20k add on, and a nonstarter. It came with lots of stuff I didn't want, and didn't want to pay for. That quickly changed when (presumably) P3D+ was not selling, splitting it into + and -, and the ensuing $5k refunds. I'm sure there are a bunch of threads about this dark period in the 3's sales life.

OK, let’s assume all of this is correct.

So we have a company that is extremely concerned about profitability. We have a car that is software locked but otherwise identical to the P3D-. Tesla could add pure profit to the bottom line, as they did with ludicrous mode, by offering this upgrade. But they just haven’t got around to it yet?

And all of those AWD owners who called this month to switch to a P3D- and were reassigned VINs rather than just adding the upgrade to their AWD cars?

Why am I the only one on this forum that thinks this makes no sense?

 

[OCR1]

Why do you keep knowingly spreading false info?

We know for a fact the CEO told us the Performance drive units tested out with higher capabilities and this was confirmed by a TMC member who toured the factory and was explained the binning process by one of the Tesla employees. Now they even have different part numbers which should be the final nail in the coffin of this bad rumor.

The silicon carbide drive inverters were part of this binning process to separate out the Performance capable units from those destined for AWD (non-performance models). I'm not sure why we have to go over this every few months. All the info is in earlier posts in this thread.

Yes, that is what I was told by an executive at Tesla as well. But I’m going to Fremont for a factory tour next month and I’m going to ask the question again just to see if I get a consistent response.

 

[mreynolds767]

OK, let’s assume all of this is correct.

So we have a company that is extremely concerned about profitability. We have a car that is software locked but otherwise identical to the P3D-. Tesla could add pure profit to the bottom line, as they did with ludicrous mode, by offering this upgrade. But they just haven’t got around to it yet?

And all of those AWD owners who called this month to switch to a P3D- and were reassigned VINs rather than just adding the upgrade to their AWD cars?

Why am I the only one on this forum that thinks this makes no sense?

Tesla could have made money for years for charging for premium connectivity ; it looks like now they are only just be beginning to

many possible easy software upgrades can be sold to SR+ owners and SR owners for some extra cash but have not yet

so yeah it makes sense they have not gotten to it yet

 

[OCR1]

Tesla could have made money for years for charging for premium connectivity ; it looks like now they are only just be beginning to

many possible easy software upgrades can be sold to SR+ owners and SR owners for some extra cash but have not yet

so yeah it makes sense they have not gotten to it yet

OK, but when you order an SR+ and request it be sold as an SR they software lock it. When you order an AWD and then request to change it to a Stealth they reassign you a new VIN. And if you only want a Stealth and all they have are AWD cars they lose the sale.

 

[Knightshade]

Why do you keep knowingly spreading false info?

Because it's not false.

You can look yourself in the parts catalog to confirm every fact I have posted.

Why do you keep calling someone backed up by official published sources a liar is a better question.

We know for a fact the CEO told us the Performance drive units tested out with higher capabilities

No, we don't.

We have one vague tweet, never followed up on in any way, that doesn't even say what you seem to think it does.

Here's the relevant quote

Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in.

"double burn in" just means "we ran the test twice as long" it tells you literally nothing useful (unless it's a part you expect to fail almost immediately anyway- instead of one you expect to run for hundreds of thousands of miles) so we can toss that bit out.

All we're left with it "lot sorted for highest sigma output"

Now- do you know what that actually means, and why it does not tell us anything at all about if "regular" AWD 980 DUs are functionally any less capable of being flashed to P software?

Especially given we know for a fact such DUs have been flashed to P software on the lot?

Add to that the fact all the DUs ended up stamped with the same part number after whatever (never proven to actually happen) "sorting" was done.


Which makes zero sense from inventory or manufacturing or supply chain perspective if there was any actual functional difference


Chip makers bin parts all the time.

When they do, they stamp different part numbers on the ones who perform differently enough for it to matter.

So does everyone else who actual bin parts.

Otherwise you have no simple way to track the actual differences in parts.

and this was confirmed by a TMC member who toured the factory and was explained the binning process by one of the Tesla employees.

If you seriously want to use "some rando tesla employee said" as a source then we have ones who also told us:

Track mode is only for the P3D+ (known false)
The + and - have different motors (also known false)
The first "unexpected" P3D- batch this year was "just a one-off mistake (also known false since there's been multiple additional batched, regularly, since)

and a hundred other completely false BS "someone at tesla" told to people.

Hell, even Elon has, often, said things about the cars that turned out never to happen.

There was supposed to be an SDK for developers to make infotainment apps- Elon said so in like 2013. Never happened. Back in 2016 he said instead they were gonna do phone mirroring to the screen (their own version, not Apple or Androids version)- never happened.

V10 was supposed to roll out with text-to-voice features. Never happened. (Hell, V9 was supposed to roll out with waypoints in nav- also never happened)

And of course he told us years ago the 3 would come with ludicrious mode.

Where is it?


So apart from the CEO himself getting a lot wrong- for rank and file folks Tesla has arguably the least informed workforce in the industry on how they actually do anything because they're so terrible at communication both internal and external.

Now they even have different part numbers which should be the final nail in the coffin of this bad rumor.

...you realize this contradicts your own argument right?

The reason to use a different part number is the part is different

Which means that now the rear DU is different between AWD and P.

And that it was not different in 2018 when it was the same part in both cars.


Which is literally the evidence you claimed was "false" but now appear to be on board with...??

The silicon carbide drive inverters were part of this binning process to separate out the Performance capable units from those destined for AWD (non-performance models). I'm not sure why we have to go over this every few months.

Because you keep being wrong about it- as directly contradicted by the actual PNs in Teslas catalog.

And apparently as contradicted by your own argument that since PNs are different NOW that shows they're different.

Yes- it does.

It also shows they were not different when both cars got the same PN installed.


That is, again, kind of the point of having part numbers

All the info is in earlier posts in this thread.

Yes, it is, yet somehow you keep getting it wrong.

Weird.

 

[ConcordeSST]

 

[Knightshade]

OK, let’s assume all of this is correct.

So we have a company that is extremely concerned about profitability. We have a car that is software locked but otherwise identical to the P3D-. Tesla could add pure profit to the bottom line, as they did with ludicrous mode, by offering this upgrade. But they just haven’t got around to it yet?

As pointed out- they took ~2 years to figure out how to bill their own customers they already had billing info for for a service they were already giving them

Tesla is grossly incompetent on the business side of things in most cases and often leave easy money on the table.

Or hell- look at all the SR owners who want to buy an SR+ upgrade- something Tesla explicitly said they would sell that can't get a straight answer on how (in some cases with stores telling them it's not even possible.

That's again free money for Tesla for a SW unlock but they're too incompetent to take it.

This is not new.

On top of that- doing it last year could have significantly cannibalized more profitable P sales so would've been a dumb move then anyway.

THAT is no longer true though- see below.

O
And all of those AWD owners who called this month to switch to a P3D- and were reassigned VINs rather than just adding the upgrade to their AWD cars?

Why am I the only one on this forum that thinks this makes no sense?

Because you're conflating two different things.


2018 cars (possibly 100% of them but certainly nearly all of em) came with the same rear DU as the P.

They are, as far as the parts catalog shows us, the same car.

Indeed- owners got AWD-on-the-lot flashed to P at/after delivery numerous times when buying a P3D- in 2018.

These are all known facts.

THOSE cars could be flashed to P (and a few WERE when they were delivered as non-P to P buyers)



Since early 2019 the AWD began coming with a DIFFERENT drive unit.

And it's entirely possible those cars can not be flashed to P.

Which would explain why P3D- buyers get a new VIN now and not a software flash.




So anyway- this is why they COULD offer a paid unlock to 2018 cars now.

Because NEW buyers won't have this option- so it won't hurt P sales going forward.


(see also the folks who argue we won't get ludicrous on a P3 until Plaid comes out for the S for somewhat similar reasons)

 

[OCR1]

As pointed out- they took ~2 years to figure out how to bill their own customers they already had billing info for for a service they were already giving them

Tesla is grossly incompetent on the business side of things in most cases and often leave easy money on the table.

Or hell- look at all the SR owners who want to buy an SR+ upgrade- something Tesla explicitly said they would sell that can't get a straight answer on how (in some cases with stores telling them it's not even possible.

That's again free money for Tesla for a SW unlock but they're too incompetent to take it.

This is not new.

On top of that- doing it last year could have significantly cannibalized more profitable P sales so would've been a dumb move then anyway.

THAT is no longer true though- see below.






Because you're conflating two different things.


2018 cars (possibly 100% of them but certainly nearly all of em) came with the same rear DU as the P.

They are, as far as the parts catalog shows us, the same car.

Indeed- owners got AWD-on-the-lot flashed to P at/after delivery numerous times when buying a P3D- in 2018.

These are all known facts.

THOSE cars could be flashed to P (and a few WERE when they were delivered as non-P to P buyers)



Since early 2019 the AWD began coming with a DIFFERENT drive unit.

And it's entirely possible those cars can not be flashed to P.

Which would explain why P3D- buyers get a new VIN now and not a software flash.




So anyway- this is why they COULD offer a paid unlock to 2018 cars now.

Because NEW buyers won't have this option- so it won't hurt P sales going forward.


(see also the folks who argue we won't get ludicrous on a P3 until Plaid comes out for the S for somewhat similar reasons)

So with the exception of some 2018 vehicles, the 2019 AWD does have different parts than the P3D-, as I’ve been saying all along. I’m not sure what we are debating here. We are not buying 2018 cars. If some of those buyers can eventually upgrade, good for them. For those of us contemplating purchasing a new car, we don’t need to rehash what may have transpired in 2018.

 

[Knightshade]

So with the exception of some 2018 vehicles, the 2019 AWD does have different parts than the P3D-, as I’ve been saying all along.

Err... everybody has been saying that since July 2019 when reports of the 990 began coming up as appearing in some AWD cars.

There's a whole other thread with pics from owners.

(though it's not all 2019s, I think with 1 exception April was the earliest 990 reported in the US though there were still 980 reports for a while after that too)

Nobody's debating the parts are different now

(the fact they are makes a software unlock for 980 owners easier for Tesla as I mentioned since it won't cannibalize future P sales)

I’m not sure what we are debating here.

Clearly.

We are not buying 2018 cars. If some of those buyers can eventually upgrade, good for them.

that is what we are debating

If Tesla will offer a software unlock for folks with the HW capable of using it.

For those of us contemplating purchasing a new car, we don’t need to rehash what may have transpired in 2018.

Then you appear to be in the wrong thread.

The very first post in the thread is someone asking Tesla to offer a SW unlock for existing cars capable of getting one- not about new purchases.

Which we know are the 980 rear buyers (the existence of the 990 change wouldn't show up until roughly 20 pages into the thread)

(Note- it's POSSIBLE 990 owners could also do the same...we don't know the functional differences.... but that is unlikely because if the 990 is just as capable AND cheaper they'd use that in the P too... and if it's just as capable and NOT cheaper, it wouldn't even exist... so cheaper and less capable is really the only option that makes any sense for 990)

 

[jonquiljo]

When I look at the question of why Tesla does not make a “conversion path” from LR AWD to Performance LR AWD, it seems to me that the answer is a question of business politics. I could be totally wrong, but this is my reasoning.

It seems that a software unlock is all that is needed to turn a non-P LR AWD into a P- LR AWD if the rear motor on the LR AWD is a 980. If a 990 rear motor is currently being put into ALL non-p LR AWD cars, Tesla has a difficult situation with customer relations. Only older LR AWD cars have 980 motors. The newer ones have 990s. If Tesla offered an ‘unlock” for all LR AWD cars that have a 980 rear motor, it would stir incredible anger from those (newer owners) that have a 990 rear motor. Basically Tesla cannot offer the unlock to everyone with a LR AWD, so they don’t offer it at all.

Then comes the question of why Tesla pumped out so many LR AWD performance cars this year? Since Tesla was now putting 990 motors into LR AWD cars, it probably had a bunch of surplus 980 motors. Also it appears that the P3D+ was delayed this quarter, so Tesla probably had even more 980’s sitting around than it could currently deal with. Tesla likely made the decision to make a ton of LR AWD performance cars to use the surplus 980 motors and grab a few bucks in the process.

I bet from now on (or soon from now) that 980’s will only be used in P3D+ cars, and LR AWD cars will all get 990’s (locked down to a certain power). Stealth P3D- cars are probably cannibalizing P3D- sales. For now, it lets Tesla off the hook for slow P3D+ production. In the future, I highly doubt Tesla will go that route.

Tesla probably doesn’t want to increase the complexity of Model 3 trims in the future, so they will stick with 3 of them. If you want the speed -you buy the P3D+. LR AWD will be incapable of an upgrade, so any upgrade for owners of older LR AWD cars (with 980 motors) will be off the table. Tesla doesn’t want a *sugar*-storm over a bunch of $2K upgrades that are not available to everyone.

Well anyway, this is my take on it. It’s not a technical issue, but rather a business decision. When Tesla only has enough 980 motors for P3D+ production only, the “stealth” as we know it will likely go away.

 

[Knightshade]

When I look at the question of why Tesla does not make a “conversion path” from LR AWD to Performance LR AWD, it seems to me that the answer is a question of business politics. I could be totally wrong, but this is my reasoning.

It seems that a software unlock is all that is needed to turn a non-P LR AWD into a P- LR AWD if the rear motor on the LR AWD is a 980. If a 990 rear motor is currently being put into ALL non-p LR AWD cars, Tesla has a difficult situation with customer relations. Only older LR AWD cars have 980 motors. The newer ones have 990s. If Tesla offered an ‘unlock” for all LR AWD cars that have a 980 rear motor, it would stir incredible anger from those (newer owners) that have a 990 rear motor. Basically Tesla cannot offer the unlock to everyone with a LR AWD, so they don’t offer it at all.

FWIW Tesla has explicitly offered performance upgrades for money, only to cars bought before a certain date that didn't come with the performance originally, in the past.

For example only those who ordered a P85D before July 2015 could add ludicrous (which required hardware AND software upgrades) for money...

Likewise lots of other new features they add after purchase can be dependent on date bought both free and for money (biofilter upgrade was sold to folks who had cars from before it was an option for example... free dashcam stuff only available to those who bought after they switched the S to MCU2, S75 uncork only available if you bought after a certain date, etc...)

 

[dennistdk]

It seems that a software unlock is all that is needed to turn a non-P LR AWD into a P- LR AWD if the rear motor on the LR AWD is a 980. If a 990 rear motor is currently being put into ALL non-p LR AWD cars, Tesla has a difficult situation with customer relations. Only older LR AWD cars have 980 motors. The newer ones have 990s. If Tesla offered an ‘unlock” for all LR AWD cars that have a 980 rear motor, it would stir incredible anger from those (newer owners) that have a 990 rear motor. Basically Tesla cannot offer the unlock to everyone with a LR AWD, so they don’t offer it at all.

You are forgetting that it's not the rear 990 that is limited, but the 960 in the front (where the 90hp is missing from to turn it into a P3D-).

 

[StealthP3D]

For those of us contemplating purchasing a new car, we don’t need to rehash what may have transpired in 2018.

I will say this with a lot fewer words than Knightshade uses to try to get his misleading points across:

True, if you want Performance, buy a performance model. Because they have a different drive unit to handle the additional output!

Obviously...

 

[StealthP3D]

FWIW Tesla has explicitly offered performance upgrades for money, only to cars bought before a certain date that didn't come with the performance originally, in the past.

For example only those who ordered a P85D before July 2015 could add ludicrous (which required hardware AND software upgrades) for money...

Correct. But we are discussing the Model 3 in this thread.

 

[jonquiljo]

FWIW Tesla has explicitly offered performance upgrades for money, only to cars bought before a certain date that didn't come with the performance originally, in the past.

For example only those who ordered a P85D before July 2015 could add ludicrous (which required hardware AND software upgrades) for money...

Likewise lots of other new features they add after purchase can be dependent on date bought both free and for money (biofilter upgrade was sold to folks who had cars from before it was an option for example... free dashcam stuff only available to those who bought after they switched the S to MCU2, S75 uncork only available if you bought after a certain date, etc...)

I understand that. What I am thinking is that Tesla is now into cranking out cars en masse and not able (or willing) to put the resources into upgrading current cars.

It would make sense. Tesla want's money - lots of it. It didn't even make sense why they made so many P3D- cars this year, unless they did it to use up excess stock of 980's and to make some people who ordered happy and sell them a stealth instead of a P3D+. It does appear that P3D+ cars are still in short supply in Q4. Either way, they are delayed.

I just don't see why Tesla sells stealth cars when they can get so much more money when they sell P3D+'s? It didn't make sense to me but I was quick to grab a P3D- when one became available this month.

With Model Ys coming up and eventually the Truck, I just don't see Tesla widening their menu much. They already have more to deal with than they probably can handle.

 

[jonquiljo]

Ironically, I find the question of why Tesla made a bunch of stealth's this quarter the most interesting question of them all. Logically it didn't make sense. If they made 1000 stealths at $2000 extra each, they got $2M more income. That's nothing to Tesla.

To top it all, they stopped making ordered cars and stuck in at least 2 runs of unordered stealths. Nobody does that without a reason. It's also something that no one at Tesla has ever properly addressed.

 

[Knightshade]

True, if you want Performance, buy a performance model. Because they have a different drive unit to handle the additional output!

Obviously...

Yes, very obviously that's the case today for new buyers..

Just as obvious as the fact that in 2018 they did not have different drive units- as confirmed by Teslas own parts catalog and slews of LR AWD owners posting the PN that came in their car as a rear DU- and thus AWD cars with the 980 drive unit, the same one in the P, could easily be software flashed to be a P3D- if Tesla offered that unlock as the actual original post in this very thread is asking for them to do.

Thanks for finally getting on board with correct, well documented, facts

 

[Knightshade]

Ironically, I find the question of why Tesla made a bunch of stealth's this quarter the most interesting question of them all.

They made em last quarter too.

Answer seems pretty clear- they had a bunch more 980 rear DUs than they had P3D+ orders.

So either they let em sit and do nothing- or they put them into LR AWD cars (that now would otherwise come with 990 rear DUs), and get an extra $2000 over the AWD sales they would replace (as it's been pretty common to see folks upsold from AWD to P3D- last quarter or two for that 2k).

The 990 [has to be[/B] cheaper than the 980- but almost certainly not 2k cheaper. So net profit for DUs they had too many of to otherwise use.


BTW, we know they were putting these 980s into what otherwise would've been just AWD cars because as recently as a couple months ago we had people here taking delivery what they BOUGHT as a P3D- but actually was delivered as... a LR AWD with no performance software on it. (With a 980 rear DU of course)

At least one of em reported the service center flashed it from AWD to P on the spot.. and several more reported they got an OTA software flash to change it into a P3D- a day or two later instead but it was a LR AWD until the software flash.