For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[M3PLRD]

Not really. I even showed the reasoning.



really?

What other possibility is there for them to make a different motor (adding costs in development and testing, costs in manufacturing, costs in supply chain, and more) OTHER the motor is cheaper to make?


And remember your "other possibility" needs to also account for the fact this motor is not used at all in the P. Which it would be if it was BOTH cheaper AND just as capable.


"Cheaper and less capable of max power" is the only explanation for the 990 that fits both requirements.

But by all means let us know if you have another.

As mentioned, I am not going into a "you said, I said" discussion. You clearly believe that your homemade logic stands true and, based on your writing, I don't see that you can entertain a broader perspective.

 

[mreynolds767]

Not really. I even showed the reasoning.



really?

What other possibility is there for them to make a different motor (adding costs in development and testing, costs in manufacturing, costs in supply chain, and more) OTHER the motor is cheaper to make?


And remember your "other possibility" needs to also account for the fact this motor is not used at all in the P. Which it would be if it was BOTH cheaper AND just as capable.


"Cheaper and less capable of max power" is the only explanation for the 990 that fits both requirements.

But by all means let us know if you have another.

But ask yourself, if there is a cost difference to Telsa between 980/990 why does Telsa allow buyers to buy a Stealth and have it downgraded to a regular AWD at time of purchase ; saving the buyer $2K
Numerous cases of this actually happening.
If the other motor cost Telsa so much more, why would they allow this?

I personally think the parts are identical but the 980 labeled motors were tested in a different manner ; the 990 simply did not get tested. Saves them a step in the process. All of the 990 may pass the test, but maybe some will not.
Everyone has an opinion ; no one outside of Telsa really knows.

 

[MagnusMako]

Tesla is ultra conservative with the 3.9 number which is laughable because we all know the AWD car in its current form is not 4.4 sec.

Yes they are ultra conservative - I get the sense that some people here don't realize that when looking at what Tesla is offering.

Anyway I seen someone post the new 0-60 time and I believe they had a 990 motor. Has anyone posted an new time with a 980 motor using a Dragy? I need to see what a 980 now does to better understand what they are doing.

Mine's a 980 and I've posted my times earlier in the thread.

What was your time before the upgrade?

My best time previously (which was right after the recent 2019.36.x 5% boost) was 12.14 I think, it was 12.1x. There's a screenshot somewhere in one of my posts in the last month that shows it.

 

[-motts-]

But many of them made that analysis/decision when the P3D- was an $11,000 upgrade, not $2000.

Many more made it when the P3D- wasn't even available for purchase anymore (late 2018 and first half of 2019) and upgrading to "a" P was still a TON more money than $2000.

Exactly. If I even had the option of a stealth when I got my awd, I would have jumped at it. I did not want the 20" rims for various reasons but wanted the speed and track mode. This upgrade would have been what I wanted but unfortunately it lacks the actual stealth features.


Maybe at some point they'll release it to us 980 owners, but I'm not gonna hold my breath anymore.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

Exactly. If I even had the option of a stealth when I got my awd, I would have jumped at it. I did not want the 20" rims for various reasons but wanted the speed and track mode. This upgrade would have been what I wanted but unfortunately it lacks the actual stealth features.


Maybe at some point they'll release it to us 980 owners, but I'm not gonna hold my breath anymore.

I think this is it. The midway point between the 2 versions. If you are lurking on the forum and haven't pulled the trigger on the car...buy a stealth. If you have an AWD.....see if the results are good enough to pull the trigger. Remember....95% of exotic car owners drive their cars slow. People asking for Track mode just want the clout. They probably never even been to a race track.

I personally believe this has MORE value than AP and FSD. Not EVERYONE uses those options but.
Again I know how software goes but I do believe the ROI if any on this upgrade has more significance in private party selling. Maybe not trade in or dealership. Same as some manufacturers have launch mode ie Porsche. Some people are willing to pay for it.Not all.

 

[thor_2019]

Binning or bench testing costs money and time, also if the 980/990 were physically different this also increases cost of both versions of the motor. I'd wager that the 980 is simply a bench tested version of the same hardware.

PS does anyone have a Dragy to lend? Spent all my $$$s on the "Acceleration Boost" upgrade.

But ask yourself, if there is a cost difference to Telsa between 980/990 why does Telsa allow buyers to buy a Stealth and have it downgraded to a regular AWD at time of purchase ; saving the buyer $2K
Numerous cases of this actually happening.
If the other motor cost Telsa so much more, why would they allow this?

I personally think the parts are identical but the 980 labeled motors were tested in a different manner ; the 990 simply did not get tested. Saves them a step in the process. All of the 990 may pass the test, but maybe some will not.
Everyone has an opinion ; no one outside of Telsa really knows.

 

[Knightshade]

But ask yourself, if there is a cost difference to Telsa between 980/990 why does Telsa allow buyers to buy a Stealth and have it downgraded to a regular AWD at time of purchase ; saving the buyer $2K
Numerous cases of this actually happening.

Really? Can you cite any?

All the cases I'm aware of was someone showed up to buy a P3D-, but the car on the lot was a 980 AWD... so Tesla fixed that by a software flash to make it a P.

Not aware of anybody doing the opposite (especially since the 990 has existed).

I personally think the parts are identical but the 980 labeled motors were tested in a different manner ; the 990 simply did not get tested. Saves them a step in the process. All of the 990 may pass the test, but maybe some will not.

If that were the ONLY difference the 990 would be in everything but the P.

It's not.

For that matter- why'd they spend a year and a half testing the 980s they put in EVERY model 3 instead of just having a "not testing" part from the start and saving a ton of $?

 

[EVMike3]

Thank you MagnusMako for confirming you have the 980 and thanks for your Dragy results.

Mine's a 980 and I've posted my times earlier in the thread.

 

[Wilsenöw]

My guess is that Tesla will add new gradual power boosts later on to those who get this update. Makes no sense they give away everything now. And this will ensure that the feature gets attention longer and get more people to buy it.

I'm hoping for this as well. Which is partly why I changed my mind . Obviously they should be at no additional cost. Eventually I'm hoping we're on par with p3d.

 

[Knightshade]

I don't see that you can entertain a broader perspective.

I don't see you've tried to offer one.

You simply said "There could be other reasons" without offering any- or showing where the reasoning I presented was flawed in any way.

That's not a perspective at all- it's just disagreement without substance.


Again, if the 990 isn't cheaper (regardless of WHY it's cheaper) there's no reason it would exist. They'd just keep using 980 in everything.

If the 990 isn't less capable (since we know it has to be cheaper) there's no reason it wouldn't be in every new model 3 instead of just LR AWD... but we know it's not.

Therefore the 990 must be both cheaper and less capable.

I'm making no claims about the amount of "less capable" (other than we know it can at least handle this new $2000 upgrade, but can NOT handle going into a full P- see again point 2 above).

I'm making no claims about the reasons it's cheaper either- only that if it wasn't there's no reason for there to even be a 990 part.... that said- I don't find "it's only cheaper by being a 980 they don't test" persuasive- because that wouldn't have taken them a year and a half to start doing- they could've done that from the start. Developing/testing/certifying an actual physically different part however would explain why it took time to come to exist and be used in production.

 

[jebinc]

I don't see you've tried to offer one.

You simply said "There could be other reasons" without offering any- or showing where the reasoning I presented was flawed in any way.

That's not a perspective at all- it's just disagreement without substance.


Again, if the 990 isn't cheaper (regardless of WHY it's cheaper) there's no reason it would exist. They'd just keep using 980 in everything.

If the 990 isn't less capable (since we know it has to be cheaper) there's no reason it wouldn't be in every new model 3 instead of just LR AWD... but we know it's not.

Therefore the 990 must be both cheaper and less capable.

I'm making no claims about the amount of "less capable" (other than we know it can at least handle this new $2000 upgrade, but can NOT handle going into a full P- see again point 2 above).

I'm making no claims about the reasons it's cheaper either- only that if it wasn't there's no reason for there to even be a 990 part.... that said- I don't find "it's only cheaper by being a 980 they don't test" persuasive- because that wouldn't have taken them a year and a half to start doing- they could've done that from the start. Developing/testing/certifying an actual physically different part however would explain why it took time to come to exist and be used in production.

Perhaps it's more capable (or higher reliability/longer lasting/more energy efficient, if not powerful) than the 980? If could be that we see more upgrade options for the "newer" LR AWD cars (w/ 990's) than the older ones with the 980 DU. Bottom line, no one really knows here... and if they did, they probably couldn't talk about it with authority.

 

[mreynolds767]

Really? Can you cite any?

All the cases I'm aware of was someone showed up to buy a P3D-, but the car on the lot was a 980 AWD... so Tesla fixed that by a software flash to make it a P.

Not aware of anybody doing the opposite (especially since the 990 has existed).

?

Yes there were a few on this forum in the US in Summer of 2019
Will try to find at least one for you.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

All i know is that for everyone who talked about binned motors and different inverters inside can go suck it. Tesla already had a production problem and trying to say that certain motors had more burn in is horse *sugar*. Taking elons words as jesus. My god the QC of these cars was already bad enough and trying to figure out which motor goes where is mind numbing. Hell....interior option is just black or white and you want to tell me P motors had different inverters? I ALWAYS KNEW it was a software unlock. Having no download when bought proves it 100%

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

/more energy efficient

If that were the case the 2020 EPA datafile would not show that the 18" Performance is more efficient than the 18" AWD. The 2020 Performance with 18" is the most efficient AWD vehicle that Tesla sells. It is voluntarily derated to match the AWD range.

 

[Watts_Up]

There’s a Tesla phone app update, not sure if that means anything, but something is happening.

Is it for Android or iPhone?

The current Andoid version is 3.102-3888 and is dated Nov 22, 2019.

The current iPhone version is 3.10.3 and is dated Dec 18, 2019
(This release contains minor fixes and improvements).

Looking at the Google Play online App store, there is today a new Tesla Android App matching the newest Apple App:

December 18, 2019 (instead of November 22, 2019) but is not yet available for download for my Samsung Galaxy phone.​

 

[Knightshade]

Perhaps it's more capable (or higher reliability/longer lasting/more energy efficient, if not powerful) than the 980?

If that were the case they'd be using it in the P too.

The fact they're still using the 980 in the P but not the LR AWD anymore tells us the 990 is less capable than the 980 is.

And as Alan notes the EPA data suggests the 990 is also less efficient than the 980- which would also not be possible if it was simply "an untested 980" rather than a physically different part.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

If that were the case they'd be using it in the P too.

The fact they're still using the 980 in the P but not the LR AWD anymore tells us the 990 is less capable than the 980 is.

And as Alan notes the EPA data suggests the 990 is also less efficient than the 980- which would also not be possible if it was simply "an untested 980" rather than a physically different part.

Where is this located? This 980/990 motor debate is interesting. I have a troll over on FB i wanna shove this *sugar* in his face LOL

 

[jebinc]

If that were the case they'd be using it in the P too.

The fact they're still using the 980 in the P but not the LR AWD anymore tells us the 990 is less capable than the 980 is.

And as Alan notes the EPA data suggests the 990 is also less efficient than the 980- which would also not be possible if it was simply "an untested 980" rather than a physically different part.

I'm not saying your logic isn't sound, just that there could be "some" better things in he 990 that the older design 980 doesn't have (say reliability), even if the raw power output is less than the 980. Then, lest us not forget, the LR AWD has a front DU. It's possible that an upgrade down the road could have the front DU "make up for" the suspected less powerful 990 DU. If both thoughts turn out to be true, the 990 equipped LR AWDs would have equal power and perhaps something better (in the 990) that we don't know about. Not looking for a debate or argument as I don't disagree with your singular dimension logic/analysis - but, there are other overall variables at play.

Edit: This post today on the Tesla forum - In short, a 980 failed DU was replaced with a 990 (in a LR AWD). Could be many reasons for this (failure and swap) including cost or reliability.

" I don't think that best-of-the-lot thing was ever true. I just had my rear drive unit fail, which was the one that was supposed to be lot-sorted with extra burn in time. They replaced it with a standard read drive unit that was not specific to performance cars. I asked them about it and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. I emailed them about it and haven't received a reply. Pretty sure that wasn't completely true, although I could be wrong."

 

[MXWing]

All i know is that for everyone who talked about binned motors and different inverters inside can go suck it. Tesla already had a production problem and trying to say that certain motors had more burn in is horse *sugar*. Taking elons words as jesus. My god the QC of these cars was already bad enough and trying to figure out which motor goes where is mind numbing. Hell....interior option is just black or white and you want to tell me P motors had different inverters? I ALWAYS KNEW it was a software unlock. Having no download when bought proves it 100%

I gotta tag all the mods here, found a snarkier ahole than me even.

When Elon did that tweet it might have been true for the first dozen cars.

After that, makes no sense. Same motor for all and control by software.

If Tesla was giving out 15KW of battery capacity in their builds (60D), putting better motors is an obvious no brainer.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Where is this located? This 980/990 motor debate is interesting. I have a troll over on FB i wanna shove this *sugar* in his face LOL

Download Fuel Economy Data

Enjoy. The information on voluntary range reduction is in the data file in Excel form on the left side of the table. EV tab.

This file also says (and has always said since 2018) that the rear motor of the AWD is lower power than the rear motor of the Performance - FWIW.

With all the focus on power: It's worth noting & repeating AGAIN that without any change in peak power output on either drive unit, they could make the AWD a lot faster to about 35mph (identical to Performance) - they would just have to increase the initial torque and then taper it off. I don't know what technical limitation might prevent that "MaxTorque" setting from being increased for 990 drive units. It's possible there is some instantaneous power dissipation limitation but honestly I don't know enough about motor drive electronics to understand what would be more stressful to components (other than mechanical strength) about a higher torque setting (where average power dissipation is not an issue).