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For Model 3 LTE/3g and free SC have to go

Vitold

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Aug 10, 2015
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Everyone expects Model 3 to offer less comforts and technology than MS. (base-mid models). I think some of the features on the cutting board will be free access to SC and LTE/3G internet access.

  • It costs Tesla more than 25000 per year in electricity to support 8 stalls. Such cost cannot be subsidized by M3 under $35k price model.
  • LTE/3G access probably adds up as well, I'd imagine, $30/month is $2880 over the warranty life of the car (assuming 8 years).

I think pay per minute SC access for M3 is inevitable and should happen, lack of OTA could be easily solved by sending updates via SC network (upload files as you charge) or home WIFI. I'm interested what others think?
 

efusco

Moderator - Model S & X forums
Moderator
No way they ditch OTA. It might be limited, but one of the major benefits of Tesla is their ability to send OTA patches almost instantaneously and at almost zero cost. I could imagine them having every car enabled, but not allow user access without a monthly fee or something like that, but I just don't think they block that.

The fee for use on SCs is interesting. I could see them offering limited access for free...maybe 12 times a year? Then for fee beyond that. Something that would limit the every day use but still make it available for occasional use when traveling. But even that, you need the 3G/LTE access to bill for it.
 

Vitold

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Aug 10, 2015
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Supercharging isn't free currently, it's included in the price of the vehicle. No reason to think it couldn't be included at least as an add-on for the Model 3.

Reason to fame (and being?) for Model 3 is long range and low $35k price tag. Due to cost saving reasons I think $35k Model 3 will not have LTE/3G or free SC.

I think that per minute SC charging would be the best way to utilize super chargers and eventually, due to large number of Teslas on the roads, SC will require per minute billing to discourage prolonged parking while shopping/eating/etc.
 

Model 3

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Jul 13, 2014
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LTE/3G access probably adds up as well, I'd imagine, $30/month is $2880 over the warranty life of the car (assuming 8 years).

As far as I know, no TMS to date has been sold with an lifelong free LTE/3G subscription. It was from day one meant to be a price on this access, but they have still not given any price. I think it is currently 4 years free access on the TMS?

Pay for this on the TM3? We must count on that.

It costs Tesla more than 25000 per year in electricity to support 8 stalls. Such cost cannot be subsidized by M3 under $35k price model

Tesla only sells the SC access as part of the price of the car. $35k + $2k for SC? Maybe. But a per minute charge? No way! But they may "outlaw" local access, both for the TM3, TMX, TMS and any other car that gets access to the charger network.
 
If per minute SC charges were proposed, I'd stick with my hybrid and only consider a PHEV as a vehicle replacement. Also, if they outlawed local SC access, they'd need to determine if the owner had access to charging at home (i.e. if they were renting, this would create an undue burden and a barrier of entry for the buyer).
 

SW2Fiddler

We Are Cognitive Dissidents
Mar 19, 2014
2,362
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Houston TX
JB Straubel. "The Future Of Transportation" panel. Gives us his thoughts on when pay-for-Supercharge will start to be considered. Watch at around 13 minutes if the link doesn't put you there.
On YouTube
"We offer these free to our customers. We thought about this for a long time, and it turns out, the energy cost is very low, it's more about the cost of the convenience of having access to the infrastructure. A full charge or even 50% charge in a Model S is less than $10.... it's really not entirely worth the hassle of dealing with a whole separate billing structure. And in the future, of course, it will make sense to figure out how we phase in some kind of financial transaction here, but it's going to take time. And for the beginning, a million cars, this is a viable way to do it."
 
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Vitold

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Aug 10, 2015
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EEI’s Ted Craver & Tesla’s Elon Musk & JB Straubel

JB Straubel. "The Future Of Transportation" panel. Gives us his thoughts on when pay-for-Supercharge will start to be considered. Watch at around 13 minutes if the link doesn't put you there.
On YouTube
"We offer these free to our customers. We thought about this for a long time, and it turns out, the energy cost is very low, it's more about the cost of the convenience of having access to the infrastructure. A full charge or even 50% charge in a Model S is less than $10.... it's really not entirely worth the hassle of dealing with a whole separate billing structure. And in the future, of course, it will make sense to figure out how we phase in some kind of financial transaction here, but it's going to take time. And for the beginning, a million cars, this is a viable way to do it."

The way I see it, Tesla's numbers are 'back of an envelope' estimates and subject to (drastic) change as more data comes in.

Here's where Tesla coming from: In another interview (EEI’s Ted Craver & Tesla’s Elon Musk & JB Straubel) Tesla said that SC is used 5% of the time. Assuming 12k/year average, that's 600miles (or 4 SC "fill-ups") of long range driving per year. I think that's very optimistic (or pessimistic, depending on point of view) estimate.

Does anyone really think that Model 3 drivers (as well as MS drivers for that matter) will use SC only four times a year?

As to electricity cost, TOU price in New England is close to 25c/kwh during peak hours - that's $11 per half a charge.

Sure, if Tesla thinks that you'll only use SC for $44 per year then billing is a hassle - I just don't see how that's realistic.

Btw, in the same interview EEI's Ted Craver said that utility projects long range EV driving to be 20% not 5%. That's 2400 miles per year. Seems more plausible, doesn't it?

- - - Updated - - -

If per minute SC charges were proposed, I'd stick with my hybrid and only consider a PHEV as a vehicle replacement. Also, if they outlawed local SC access, they'd need to determine if the owner had access to charging at home (i.e. if they were renting, this would create an undue burden and a barrier of entry for the buyer).

At the moment it's just on paper but local access is no longer (some would argue that it never has been) Tesla owner's 'right' and eventually will be filtered out on as needed basis, you can be sure of that.
 
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Model 3

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Jul 13, 2014
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if they outlawed local SC access, they'd need to determine if the owner had access to charging at home (i.e. if they were renting, this would create an undue burden and a barrier of entry for the buyer).

Why? The SC network is not there to give the users a way to do their daily charging. If you are going to buy an BEV you have to make sure you got access to some charging point in your daily life. If you can't charge at home or at work, you have to make sure you have access to some sort of public charging in a location that is convenient for you to charge on. If that is imposable today you will have to stick with an hybrid/PHEV, and do some work on making it possible for you to charge your day-to-day charge so you may get a BEV later. That is not Teslas responsibility.

The supercharger network is just to make it possible for an BEV (Tesla) owner to make longer trips in the BEV with less of an compromise vs. a fossil fuel car.
 
Leaving renters out of the equation considerably limits the goal you're trying to achieve (an EV revolution and ending the need for ICE vehicles). Granted they can't keep up with the orders as it is, so there is probably no rush to accommodate those who are in a less than ideal charging situation (i.e. with no capability). And you are correct that the majority of SCs are constructed to enable longer trips, but they have actually been building out CA because of the sheer numbers there and in more densely populated areas to boot.
 
The 3G/LTE connectivity was never promised to be free for the life of the car. Currently, it's free for the first 4 years, with pricing afterwords TBD (the 4 years began on Jan 1, 2014 for cars delivered before then, so it's going to be another 2 and a half years before anyone's time runs up). Depending on the cost to Tesla, this is reasonable. That said, if they do decide that you have to purchase a data plan for it, T-Mobile lets you add a tablet to an existing plan for $10 a month and I believe other networks have similar offers (I haven't looked into it). I would probably be willing to pay that rate for the connectivity.

As for supercharging - if Tesla wants to do any kind of a per-use charge for supercharger access for the M3, that removes a key competitive advantage they have. I, for one, will probably not purchase a model 3 for my next car if they go that route. I will wait for a Model 4 with pricing in the Toyota Corolla range (read $20k) before making the switch to BEV's if I don't have free lifetime access to Superchargers (or, at least paid for as part of the cost of the car).

I find it more likely that the base $35,000 Model 3 will not have supercharging enabled, much like the old S60's didn't in their base configuration. However, like with the S60, Supercharging will be an option that can be added on, at which point it will work the same way it does for every Supercharger-enabled Model S. If they do this, the M3 is still in consideration for my next car.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
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Seattle, WA
Reason to fame (and being?) for Model 3 is long range and low $35k price tag. Due to cost saving reasons I think $35k Model 3 will not have LTE/3G or free SC.

I think that per minute SC charging would be the best way to utilize super chargers and eventually, due to large number of Teslas on the roads, SC will require per minute billing to discourage prolonged parking while shopping/eating/etc.

Low cost cars like Leaf have 3G telematics. Leaf also has "No charge to charge" for 3 years (or 2).

BTW, Musk said sometime back that the SC will be free for Model 3.

Elon Musk Confirms Free Supercharging for Tesla Gen 3 (Model E) | Inside EVs
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Musk said sometime back that the SC will be free for Model 3. Elon Musk Confirms Free Supercharging for Tesla Gen 3 (Model E) | Inside EVs
The Model S/X "free supercharging" is of course not free, it is paid for in the price of the car. Model 3 could work the same way. A fraction of the price of each car with Supercharging enabled is used to build out the Supercharger network. Supercharging will surely be an option available for any Model 3 vehicle.
The bigger issue is the huge number of potential car buyers who live in multi-unit dwellings who cannot charge at home and how the Supercharger network can accommodate them. This has been discussed extensively in other threads.
 
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Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
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Low cost cars like Leaf have 3G telematics. Leaf also has "No charge to charge" for 3 years (or 2).

BTW, Musk said sometime back that the SC will be free for Model 3.

Elon Musk Confirms Free Supercharging for Tesla Gen 3 (Model E) | Inside EVs


From that (2 year old) article: "We suspect that access to the Supercharger network will be an option for Gen 3."

Leaf's CARWINGS is included in the price of the vehicle, but it's certainly not free and from what I read CARWINGS is using 2G (GPRS) ATT network.
Anyway, the point is that at $35k and >200 mile range Model 3 will have to compromise (cut costs) and telematics as well as free SC are features that are likely not to be available at that price point.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,039
9,339
The Model S/X "free supercharging" is of course not free, it is paid for in the price of the car. Model 3 could work the same way. A fraction of the price of each car with Supercharging enabled is used to build out the Supercharger network.
The bigger issue is the huge number of potential car buyers who live in multi-unit dwellings who cannot charge at home and how the Supercharger network can accommodate them. This has been discussed extensively in other threads.
I think we all know "free" is referring to no per-use fees. The $2000 fee for the 60kWh version still falls under that.
 

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
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Leaving renters out of the equation considerably limits the goal you're trying to achieve (an EV revolution and ending the need for ICE vehicles). Granted they can't keep up with the orders as it is, so there is probably no rush to accommodate those who are in a less than ideal charging situation (i.e. with no capability). And you are correct that the majority of SCs are constructed to enable longer trips, but they have actually been building out CA because of the sheer numbers there and in more densely populated areas to boot.

When Tesla was founded they saw a few problems with the existing BEV's that they wanted to fix:
1. BEV's are small, ugly ecoboxes.
2. BEV's have a very limited range
3. It takes a long time to charge a BEV.
4. It is few if any (fast) charging options in between cities or along the highways.

This problems is fixed by Tesla as good as they have been able to.
1. Teslas is just as big and beautiful as any other cars - or better.
2. Teslas have a descent range. Not yet on par with the bigger fossil-cars, but they are working on that. A few more years and we will see Teslas with 500+ EPA miles range.
3. + 4. It still takes a lot more time to charge an Tesla then to fill up a fossil car, but since you starts your day with a full "tank" every day, it is no problem that it has charged all night. But when your on the road for a longer trip, where the range alone is not adequate, you need a real fast charging station located where you are driving on your trip. The SC network is what Tesla has build to fix this problem. Yes, some of this is located in more densely populated areas, but that is not to say "Hey, you can do ALL your charging here!". If I'm on a long trip, and arrive in a new city with almost empty battery, I might have a need for a fast charging solution, whenever it is to get to the next city or to reach back to where I came from. If I will park the car for hours in this city to do a meeting or something, I might just use some public slow-charger instead.​

216.jpg

This is free to use public charging offered by the municipal of Oslo.
Posts like this is placed all over the city.



The solution for the renters is to:
Convince the landlord (or what-/who-ever that has the power there) to put up one or more charging stations if you have a parking-spot with your apartment, or to allow you to set it up your self.
Convince your boss that (s)he has to put up some charging stations for here/his employers.
Convince the shops that you use to put up some charging stations for their customer.
Convince the politicians in your city/county/municipal to set up some public available charging-posts near where you live or work.
Convince some charging network to put up some public available charging-posts near where you live or work.​

- - - Updated - - -

Convince some charging network to put up some public available charging-posts near where you live or work.

You may even convince Tesla to put up some destination-chargers somewhere that may please you :)
 
You are preaching to the choir here, but all of those solutions will no doubt be met with varying degrees of success. For those who fall through the cracks, there is no reason Tesla can't provide a subscription type of service for those who live, for example, within 12 miles of a supercharger and use it on a regular basis.
 
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