For prospective EV buyers: "How much range will I actually get?"

[father_of_6]

I took that reply to be questioning the actual timing (10 minutes)... but I took the 10 minute pumping time to not be 100% literal and timed. Maybe it only takes 4 minutes to pump gas, maybe it's 7 minutes. Doesn't matter to me... the EV refueling patterns are still *far* superior in my opinion.

Our family van is still a gas burner, so I still have the unfortunate need to visit the pump. Hands down, electric wins. I've done a fair number of road trips driving both EV and ICE. There are many posts of Tesla owners agreeing that the EV charging pattern is better for long trips and typically results in feeling more rested upon reaching your destination.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Real issue is that any ICE car i drove over years will get u at least 300mi of range, so nobody cares if it meets EPA...

I cared, because I did not like putting more money into the fuel tank.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

This!
Real issue is that any ICE car i drove over years will get u at least 300mi of range, so nobody cares if it meets EPA...
Most EVs are below 300 EPA n that results in barely 150-200mi 0-100% real range n even less since u don't ever go to extremes...
We need more charging stations n more Real range so something like ~400 EPA at least
Looking forward to owning 400mi range MS

The thing you don't seem to understand is you are used to a super inefficient gas fueled car which you gave 15+ gallons of fuel to in order to operate for 300 miles.

You have the option to have a vastly more efficient vehicle that CAN go the same distance on 3 gallons of energy. You are annoyed that if you run the heater using a gallon of fuel it results in lower range. You cannot fathom that you were perfectly happy dumping a dozen more gallons of fuel into the less efficient car to get the same distance plus heat.

 

[brainhouston]

The thing you don't seem to understand is you are used to a super inefficient gas fueled car which you gave 15+ gallons of fuel to in order to operate for 300 miles.

You have the option to have a vastly more efficient vehicle that CAN go the same distance on 3 gallons of energy. You are annoyed that if you run the heater using a gallon of fuel it results in lower range. You cannot fathom that you were perfectly happy dumping a dozen more gallons of fuel into the less efficient car to get the same distance plus heat.

i perfectly understand. But ppl like u n me are few or less
i'm perfectly happy with my 150mi range EV in the winter

We're talking about 'prospective' buyers, which are probably like 99% of population
All they know is that sticker said it'll get 300mi but they get half n get mad...
When they drive ICE, they don't care about numbers or efficiencies, all they know is driving like an average person with mixed city/highway nets them ~300 mi in any weather n gas stations are everywhere in case they forgot to 'charge'

 

[father_of_6]

i perfectly understand. But ppl like u n me are few or less
i'm perfectly happy with my 150mi range EV in the winter

We're talking about 'prospective' buyers, which are probably like 99% of population
All they know is that sticker said it'll get 300mi but they get half n get mad...
When they drive ICE, they don't care about numbers or efficiencies, all they know is driving like an average person with mixed city/highway nets them ~300 mi in any weather n gas stations are everywhere in case they forgot to 'charge'

Eh... I think that unaware future owners will just plug in at home and get over it.

 

[Happy Hippo]

And no one complains about the discrepancy of their ICE vehicle between EPA and actual mpg... and most people don't get the rated range from their ICE.

I still have an ICE car waiting for Tesla to be match me to another vin. I complain on the ICE forum boards that my SUV gets now 14-18mpg during this cold weather and we are not even in winter. Hopefully Tesla will assign me a vin soon.

 

[Holy_Song]

The thing you don't seem to understand is you are used to a super inefficient gas fueled car which you gave 15+ gallons of fuel to in order to operate for 300 miles.

You have the option to have a vastly more efficient vehicle that CAN go the same distance on 3 gallons of energy. You are annoyed that if you run the heater using a gallon of fuel it results in lower range. You cannot fathom that you were perfectly happy dumping a dozen more gallons of fuel into the less efficient car to get the same distance plus heat.

What you're not understanding is we aren't talking about ev owners of today, we are talking about potential customers. If the make and model said 300 miles on a full tank and I actually got 200 I wouldn't be too mad because you could chalk it up as running the AC, heat and driving inefficient.

Most ICE owners probably don't even pay attention to how much range they actually get numbers wise they just know "I can go x days or distance with my current fuel level" hence why I said my 23 gal 2016 truck was a 2 weeks thing driving 30 miles a day for commute.

I actually 200% get less range in my model 3 than my truck even if I slammed on the acceleration. Currently with it being 20-30 degrees in the morning and a 30 mile commute there and back is 30% of my battery. Granted I charge at home so it isn't a big deal for everyday use.

ICE owners would look at that as a extreme weakness, and annoying to deal with in the long run. Not being able to "actually" drive 150 miles seems wack.

 

[father_of_6]

ICE owners would look at that as a extreme weakness, and annoying to deal with in the long run. Not being able to "actually" drive 150 miles seems wack.

I still disagree. It's just a different pattern - plug in every day at home vs drive to a gas station every 10 days. Home charging an EV wins, hands down.

There's absolutely zero annoyance, it's not as though I need to stand there while it's charging... it happens in my sleep.

 

[andy.connor.e]

Since a common type of thread here is "I bought a Model 3, so why am I getting much less range than the rated range?", here is a thread for prospective EV buyers to try to get a more realistic estimate of their actual range before they choose or buy an EV based on its rated range.

If your current or previous vehicle was an EV (or PHEV driven mainly within its EV range), you probably already know how your actual range compares to the rated range.

If your current or previous vehicle was an ICEV, consider your fuel economy in comparison to the rated fuel economy for your vehicle (see FuelEconomy.gov - The official U.S. government source for fuel economy information. for US EPA ratings if you are in the US). However, note the following:

• Consider city and highway economy separately, since ICEVs normally do better on the highway, while EVs normally do better in the city.
• Be aware that, during cold weather, cabin heat is free in ICEVs, but is not free in EVs, where using cabin heat can be a significant economy and range penalty.

Other than the above considerations, most driving habits that improve or degrade economy in ICEVs have similar effects on economy and range in EVs. It is just that many drivers notice the difference more in EVs because "refueling" an EV takes longer than refueling an ICEV. So whether your economy is better or worse than rated in your current or previous ICEV can be a good indicator of whether your economy and range will be better or worse than rated in an EV (assuming not a lot of cold weather cabin heat).

Here are common reasons why economy and range are worse than rated for many drivers:

• Highway speeds significantly greater than 65mph.
• Hard acceleration and braking.
• Cold weather cabin heat use (EV only).
• Cold weather tire air pressures getting low and not checked.
• Higher rolling resistance replacement tires (including many higher performance tires and winter tires).
• Roof racks and cargo.
• Sentry mode or other reasons that the car does not "turn off" or "sleep" when parked (Tesla only).

There's a few factors of consideration here that I will give short to the point responses to.

Been driving a 2018 Model 3 for over 2 years now.

• Expect to exceed the estimated range for speeds under 50mph.
• Expect to get less than estimated range if you speed on the highway.
• Weight, headwind, temperature have a much more significant impact on your range than ICE vehicles.
• Expect to lose ~8-10% of your range to degradation after passing 50k miles.
• Sentry mode uses ~1 mile range per hour.

 

[rotarypower101]

Are there tools to more accurately define atmospheric temperature VS estimated range loss?

Do tools like ABRP have that weather factor baked in? Is it built into estimates the vehicle exposes?

Also Really interested what the graph looks like for the Model 3 with/without Heatpump?
As the COP of the headpump deteriorates at lower temperatures, is there a crossover point where the resistive heating might work better or be more reliable?

 

[afadeev]

The thing you don't seem to understand is you are used to a super inefficient gas fueled car which you gave 15+ gallons of fuel to in order to operate for 300 miles.

The number of gallons you pump at a station is irrelevant, since the process takes a minute or two. Not to mention that gas stations are ever-present.

EV chargers are harder to come by (L3 ones are even rarer, and are 3-5x more expensive), and EV charging does absolutely take longer to accomplish when you are on a road.
We, EV owners, all make do.
But it's foolish to dispute that this remains a significant barrier to EV adoption that needs to be overcome.

You have the option to have a vastly more efficient vehicle that CAN go the same distance on 3 gallons of energy. You are annoyed that if you run the heater using a gallon of fuel it results in lower range. You cannot fathom that you were perfectly happy dumping a dozen more gallons of fuel into the less efficient car to get the same distance plus heat.

The number of hypothetical gallons of energy is irrelevant and misleading in the context of every day vehicle use. Unless you are a full-hard-on tree hugger, in which case you should forgo cars and rely on public transit anyway.
The cost and convenience of refueling to get to your desired destinations are what drives drivetrain technology acceptance and adoption. Not bullsh*t MPGE numbers.

Tesla has been borderline misleading about the range and power degradation during cold and hot ambient temps, as well as at the prevailing highway speeds. Real-world 180-220 mile range in the winter for Model 3 is not the end of the world. Those of us living in colder climates manage to plan around it. But it is a major bummer if you were sold and expected the real-world unachievable 300+ mile range.

Case in point - my nearest ski slope is exactly 75 miles away from my garage, door-to-door. 75% highway, 25% back-roads.
If you believe Tesla marketing BS, you might expect 75/300 = 25% bettery hit from one-way trip.
In reality, my last weekend trip estimated 33% battery utilization at the outset. In reality, the drives consumed 41% on way out, and 48% on the way home (ambient temps had dropped at night).

After 9+ years of EV ownership, I expected this, charged to 100% before leaving, and got home with 11% remaining.
Charging on the way to or back, would NOT have been either pleasant, nor quick, nor desirable.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is flat-out lying.

A perspective EV buying would NEVER be able to figure out the above from anything Tesla has disclosed publicly. And that is not good.

I still have an ICE car waiting for Tesla to be match me to another vin. I complain on the ICE forum boards that my SUV gets now 14-18mpg during this cold weather and we are not even in winter. Hopefully Tesla will assign me a vin soon.

I get 28mpg on a highway on my ICE SUV, snow or rain or shine. Summer or winter. As long as I stay under 81 mph ( drop to 9th gear at 82).
ICE cars do not suffer nearly the amount of range degradation as EVs do.
Claiming otherwise is shameless FUD.

a

 

[father_of_6]

EV charging does absolutely take longer to accomplish when you are on a road.

This is 100% true, but home charging eliminates charging times for all local driving.

We, EV owners, all make do.

You may do a lot of long distance driving, so perhaps it feels like you have to "make do"... but for me, EV charging is an infinitely better experience than gas pumping.

When I replaced my ICEV with an EV, it's not as though I traded standing at the gas pump for standing at the charger... pumping gas just went away and was replaced with... nothing. I do have to plug the car in, which takes 5 seconds... but it's negligible.

Pumping gas in cold windy Winter weather, that few minutes at the pump feels like a painful eternity and is definitely *not* negligible.

Don't forget the seedy characters roaming around many gas stations (buying drugs and alcohol, panhandling, etc). Gas station visits require situational awareness that plugging in at home doesn't.

But it's foolish to dispute that this remains a significant barrier to EV adoption that needs to be overcome.

Then I'm your #1 fool, because 99.9% of people I know have a driving pattern that would be improved by switching from gas to home charging. To be fair, I don't know any cab drivers... people who drive a lot of miles for a living are definitely spending more time EV charging.

For me, the time spent charging while long distance driving is more than offset by the time saved not pumping gas while driving locally, but I make *maybe* a few long road trips a year.

Even without that offset of time, I still prefer the EV charging pattern to ICEV for road trips. Taking a 20ish minute break every 3ish hours of driving is not only acceptable, I prefer it.

 

[XPsionic]

Tesla has been borderline misleading about the range and power degradation during cold and hot ambient temps, as well as at the prevailing highway speeds. Real-world 180-220 mile range in the winter for Model 3 is not the end of the world. Those of us living in colder climates manage to plan around it. But it is a major bummer if you were sold and expected the real-world unachievable 300+ mile range.

Case in point - my nearest ski slope is exactly 75 miles away from my garage, door-to-door. 75% highway, 25% back-roads.
If you believe Tesla marketing BS, you might expect 75/300 = 25% bettery hit from one-way trip.
In reality, my last weekend trip estimated 33% battery utilization at the outset. In reality, the drives consumed 41% on way out, and 48% on the way home (ambient temps had dropped at night).

Ease of home charging aside, this thread is about "How many miles will I realistically get?", and I tend to agree with @afadeev. Each driver will have to look at their usage patterns and see if an EV will get the rated miles for them. Overall though, the odds are stacked against most drivers.

In order to get the full rated miles per charge:
1. Battery cannot be degraded
2. Must charge to 100% and run the car down below 0% (in a Tesla) to get full rated miles
3. Weather needs to be 65f or warmer
4. No rain, no snow
5. No driving faster than 60mph
6. Cannot use sentry or preconditioning while parked
7. No headwind or cross wind (3 of the 4 directions of wind is bad for range)
8. No hills (because regen isn't 100% efficient)

Look, I own a Tesla, I know all the shortcomings and the realistic range before I bought the car, while it's not impossible to achieve the rated range of the car (especially in LA traffic like I often drive in), more often than not, for most drivers in most circumstances, they won't meet all of those criterias, and therefore, will not get rated miles.

Maybe it's not that important to you that you don't get the full rated miles, great! Me too! But it's not really answering the question when people keep bringing up how easy and clean it is to charge at home.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

That's probably true of all EPA ratings though, ICE miles per gallon included.

Beating EPA in a gasoline vehicle is generally easy as long as you're not dealing with congestion. The test cycles have inefficient amounts of acceleration in them. So, if you're doing a lot of steady cruise at moderate speed you'll beat it and get closer to CAFE, HVAC on or not.

I had an Elantra ICEV rental during a repair on my Kona and I easily beat 40mpg every commute, in winter. Not stuck in traffic, max 55mph, basic considerate driving without brakes.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Ease of home charging aside, this thread is about "How many miles will I realistically get?", and I tend to agree with @afadeev. Each driver will have to look at their usage patterns and see if an EV will get the rated miles for them. Overall though, the odds are stacked against most drivers.

In order to get the full rated miles per charge:
1. Battery cannot be degraded
2. Must charge to 100% and run the car down below 0% (in a Tesla) to get full rated miles
3. Weather needs to be 65f or warmer
4. No rain, no snow
5. No driving faster than 60mph
6. Cannot use sentry or preconditioning while parked
7. No headwind or cross wind (3 of the 4 directions of wind is bad for range)
8. No hills (because regen isn't 100% efficient)

Look, I own a Tesla, I know all the shortcomings and the realistic range before I bought the car, while it's not impossible to achieve the rated range of the car (especially in LA traffic like I often drive in), more often than not, for most drivers in most circumstances, they won't meet all of those criterias, and therefore, will not get rated miles.

Maybe it's not that important to you that you don't get the full rated miles, great! Me too! But it's not really answering the question when people keep bringing up how easy and clean it is to charge at home.

Well, it depends who's asking. For general questions, I give the rated range, and then real world equivalents which is whole battery, and then maybe qualify that.

But if people are asking more seriously I'd talk charging to 90% and my "normal" 90%-10% range (Kona: 0 means 0), with winter Interstate to summer <=55mph, then the extra range I can get at 100% for longer trips and the bottom 10% if _really_ need it.

 

[afadeev]

You may do a lot of long distance driving, so perhaps it feels like you have to "make do"... but for me, EV charging is an infinitely better experience than gas pumping.

We can have a pro's / con's conversation on the subject of EV charging, but that's not really the question that was raised by OP in this thread.
It's akin to introducing the debate of how much fun it might be to go out on a date with a super-model. There are definite con's and pro's to that proposition, but again, it's not the subject of this thread.

Don't forget the seedy characters roaming around many gas stations (buying drugs and alcohol, panhandling, etc). Gas station visits require situational awareness that plugging in at home doesn't.

I don't know where you live, but if gassing up a car is a scary proposition, you may want to move. I have NEVER run into panhandlers or drug dealers at gas stations in my life, but YMMV.
Charging at home is great. I love it and I do it ~95% of the time. Unfortunately, there is that remaining 5% that can be challenge. And that challenge increases in frequency as your range drops in the winter.

Then I'm your #1 fool, because 99.9% of people I know have a driving pattern that would be improved by switching from gas to home charging. To be fair, I don't know any cab drivers... people who drive a lot of miles for a living are definitely spending more time EV charging.

That's a false argument.
I gave you an example of a ski slope 75 miles away from my house that is practically beyond the range of what a Model 3 can deliver round-trip in the winter, with ambient temps dipping below freezing.
Honestly, I will not be chancing that 150 mile round-trip drive in Model 3 any further. Getting back with 11% of SOC remaining was as low as I'm comfortable going. It will be ICE driving to ski destination from here on out for my family.

It make zero difference how convenient (or not) it is to charge a Tesla at home.
Because Tesla Model 3 range estimate in the winter is FICTION. By about a factor of 2x.
Which is the subject of this tread.

 

[gtg465x]

I’m a first time EV owner who just bought a new ‘23 RWD. I probably didn’t do enough research beforehand, but I’ve done a lot of research after purchasing, and was definitely surprised to learn how much less range I can expect on the highway than the EPA estimate. At the very least, there should be separate range estimates for highway and city driving instead of just the combined estimate. I really like how ev-database.org gives a more realistic “real range” estimate, as well as city, highway, and combined estimates for both ideal conditions and freezing temperatures. It would have been nice if I had known about that website beforehand, even though I probably still would have gotten the RWD since I work from home, only drive 50-100 miles per week, and live in the southern US.

 

[cappo3]

I’m a first time EV owner who just bought a new ‘23 RWD. I probably didn’t do enough research beforehand, but I’ve done a lot of research after purchasing, and was definitely surprised to learn how much less range I can expect on the highway than the EPA estimate. At the very least, there should be separate range estimates for highway and city driving instead of just the combined estimate. I really like how ev-database.org gives a more realistic “real range” estimate, as well as city, highway, and combined estimates for both ideal conditions and freezing temperatures. It would have been nice if I had known about that website beforehand, even though I probably still would have gotten the RWD since I work from home, only drive 50-100 miles per week, and live in the southern US.

Thank you for linking this website! I did not know about it.
Their information surely is closer to what you can really see on the road, even if not quite there yet in my experience. At -10C and 110 kph I don't think I'd see 330 km on a 100-0% charge. I'll "test" this, as soon as temps drop here. It's weirdly warm at the moment.

 

[Mixxfixx]

I drove to the cottage last week. M3p charged to 90 percent. Cottage was 220km away. It was about -10 Celsius out. I had to stop to charge. Wouldn’t have made the cottage.

also had to stop on way home to charge. So cold def kills the range

 

[gtg465x]

I drove to the cottage last week. M3p charged to 90 percent. Cottage was 220km away. It was about -10 Celsius out. I had to stop to charge. Wouldn’t have made the cottage.

also had to stop on way home to charge. So cold def kills the range

What model year do you have (330 km cold highway range from ev-database is an estimate for the current model year)? How much degradation do you have? Did you start with the battery warm in a garage? Were roads dry? Were you going faster than 110 km/hr? So many factors to account for.