For Tesla: Customer Choice is a Key to Financial Success

Tesla needs to respect its customers’ wishes by providing them with options to purchase the driving controls that they prefer. In particular, Tesla should provide customers with options to include turn signal and gear shift stalks, and also provide Model S and X purchasers with the ability to equip their vehicles with ultrasonic sensors and tactile switches. A recent survey suggests that a failure to offer turn signal and gear shift stalks may be expected to cost Tesla as many as 500,000 (or more) sales per year with the corresponding negative impacts on Tesla’s financial performance. It is trite, but true, that “the customer is always right”.

From its inception, Tesla’s rapid growth was powered by Elon’s “maximum fun” principle. Drivers were captivated by the quality of the driving experience provided by the Tesla vehicles and sales rose exponentially, year after year after year. However, beginning in 2021 Tesla degraded the controls of its refreshed Model S and Model X by removing the stalks and replacing the steering wheel with a yoke. This represented a major departure from the goal of designing Teslas to provide maximum fun. A TMC Owners Survey in July/August 2022 found that a mere 13% of the owners of new Model Ss and Xs were highly enthusiastic about Tesla’s use of “capacitive buttons for turn signals, windshield wiper and the horn”. (See: https://docs.google.com/presentatio...=false&delayms=3000#slide=id.gfdd8e250c3_0_26) While Tesla has since restored the steering wheel and centre horn button, it has unfortunately extended the removal of stalks to the refreshed Model 3 and has also deleted the ultrasonic sensors from all of its cars.

As reflected in the innumerable posts on these changes in the Tesla Motors Club forum (more than 660 in the “Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled” thread, alone, see: Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled), these changes are widely viewed as negative by many Tesla enthusiasts. In this regard, the vigorous defence by some owners, for example, of the stalkless design, is beside the point, as it is clearly apparent that the changes are resulting in the loss of potential sales. A recent survey of more than 150 individuals who plan to purchaser the upcoming, refreshed Model Y found that approximately 15% of them would decline to make the purchase if the stalks were deleted, and that a further 15% were undecided (and might decline to make the purchase if they didn’t like the stalkless controls). If, as this survey indicates, the deletion of stalks from all of its vehicles would cause between 15% to 30% of prospective Teslas purchasers to switch to EVs from other manufacturers, this would cost Tesla the sale of between 300,000 to 600,000 of the two million vehicles that it hopes to sell each year and increase the pressure on Telsa to further discount its selling prices. Accordingly, it seems likely that the changes to stalkless controls in the Models S, X and 3 may be a factor in Tesla’s declining year-over-year sales (from 2023 to 2024), its declining share of EV sales, and its declining profitability.

The reasons that the changes being made by Tesla to its switchgear (specifically the removal of stalks and the replacement of tactile switches with capacitive switches) could be expected to reduce demand for its vehicles include the following:

1. Non-standard controls (e.g., turn signal buttons, rather than stalks) are an automatic disqualifier of Teslas for many potential customers. For example: driving schools, car rental agencies, and other applications in which drivers regularly switch between different vehicles and therefore demand industry-standard controls. (As an example, see: Tesla is banned from driving schools because of new turn signals.)
2. Turn signal buttons are a safety hazard. In traffic circles, and all other circumstances in which the turn signal is to be activated while the steering wheel is turned, they cannot be used by muscle memory and cause driver distraction (as they require the driver to look away from the road to find location of the buttons), and are more likely to result in no turn signal or the wrong turn signal being activated.
3. The replacement of high-quality tactile switches with capacitive switches (for example, for front door latches, steering wheel buttons, emergency flashers and shift buttons) has further degraded safety and/or the driving experience. (These buttons often require the driver to look to confirm the location of the switch, may require more than a single press to activate them, and may result in the accidental activation of an adjacent button.)
4. These changes to the controls make the driver feel less competent (as they are unable to use the controls by muscle memory), make the driving experience less satisfying, and detract from the otherwise excellent quality experience provided by the Tesla vehicles. The low level (often subliminal) frustration and irritation caused to a driver by sub-optimal controls is the antithesis of maximum fun.

The dissatisfaction of Tesla customers with the removal of the stalks from the Models S, X and 3 has given rise to the development of aftermarket stalk kits. (See: Tesla is purging turn-signal stalks, but owners are adding them back. There are now at least three companies offering aftermarket turn signal and gear shift stalks in response to this demand. See: Model X/S OEM Style Gear Shift Stalk Switch Turn Signal Lever Kit for Tesla, Model S/X (2021+) Gear & Turn Signal Stalk, and https://www.teslasy.com/products/te...inal-style-turn-signal-gear-stalk-upgrade-kit.)

At a minimum, the demand for stalks represents a business opportunity which Tesla is well positioned to exploit (but more importantly confirms that many potential customers are likely buying vehicles from other manufacturers, instead of Teslas, in order to get standard turn signal and gear shift stalks). At a minimum, Tesla needs to offer its customers the option of purchasing its vehicles with standard turn signal and gear shift stalks, and, if that option proves overwhelmingly popular, may wish to make that the default configuration (as it has done with the steering wheel, in place of the yoke, on Model Ss and Xs).

"Tesla Model X Plaid Interior" by Mpelas199 is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[RichardC]

TLR
Way to much effort into these posts.

Agreed! Especially given that the individual who claimed that the removal of stalks had no impact on Tesla dismissed all of this copious evidence of lost customers and lost sales with the statement the lost customers don't: "... mean anything if there's another buyer happy to take the car."

Econ 101 teaches us that any loss in demand (such as that documented above) will automatically result in a reduction in the selling price and a corresponding reduction in profitability.

In other news: "Tesla’s net income fell 45 percent, from $2.7 billion in the second quarter of 2023 to $1.5 billion in the second quarter of 2024, despite efforts to cut costs, including widespread layoffs." Tesla shares dip after lackluster earnings report Coincidence?

 

[Knightshade]

Agreed! Especially given that the individual who claimed that the removal of stalks had no impact on Tesla dismissed all of this copious evidence of lost customers and lost sales with the statement the lost customers don't: "... mean anything if there's another buyer happy to take the car."

Econ 101 teaches us that any loss in demand (such as that documented above) will automatically result in a reduction in the selling price and a corresponding reduction in profitability.

citation required.


If you have 100 units as your max output-- and there's 200 people lined up to buy-- guy numbers 199 and 200 walking away does not impact your sales, nor do you need to lower prices.

Further, your claims prices were slashed vs when they last had stalks was outright debunked and you ignored this and plowed straight on repeating your false claims on a second thread where I had to correct you on it again

In other news: "Tesla’s net income fell 45 percent, from $2.7 billion in the second quarter of 2023 to $1.5 billion in the second quarter of 2024, despite efforts to cut costs, including widespread layoffs." Tesla shares dip after lackluster earnings report Coincidence?

Yes. Most of the drop in net income was from two things:

Cybertruck is losing money right now as they scale up-- there's math in the main investor thread but even a small # of money-losing trucks hits profit margin company wide VERY hard on initial ramp. This might be higher than 101 econ though.

Tesla was buying down interest rates in Q2, which is also expensive. Primarily on model Y which has stalks

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Tesla needs to respect its customers’ wishes by providing them with options to purchase the driving controls that they prefer. In particular, Tesla should provide customers with options to include turn signal and gear shift stalks, and also provide Model S and X purchasers with the ability to equip their vehicles with ultrasonic sensors and tactile switches. A recent survey suggests that a failure to offer turn signal and gear shift stalks may be expected to cost Tesla as many as 500,000 (or more) sales per year with the corresponding negative impacts on Tesla’s financial performance. It is trite, but true, that “the customer is always right”.

You need to send the survey that predicts sales loss of a half million cars to the Tesla board of directors. If only they cared about sales!

Customer is always right?

 

[popgodazipa]

Meh...I don't miss the stalks. I think the auto gear shift is super convenient, particularly for 3 point parking. I'll give them a pass on auto wipers. The software folks overpromised on this one but it has improved. Turn signal...that one is a miss. The buttons are not superior but I like the effort.

Listen you have to let the innovators amongst us innovate. Those who don't thrive in that space may not want to buy a Tesla but I appreciate the mad scientist in Elon and his team. We wouldn't know what a reliable charging infrastructure looked like if it wasn't for Tesla willingness to take intelligent risk. Let em cook!

 

[Lance From Jax]

Meh...I don't miss the stalks. I think the auto gear shift is super convenient, particularly for 3 point parking. I'll give them a pass on auto wipers. The software folks overpromised on this one but it has improved. Turn signal...that one is a miss. The buttons are not superior but I like the effort.

Listen you have to let the innovators amongst us innovate. Those who don't thrive in that space may not want to buy a Tesla but I appreciate the mad scientist in Elon and his team. We wouldn't know what a reliable charging infrastructure looked like if it wasn't for Tesla willingness to take intelligent risk. Let em cook!

Thank you!

 

[RichardC]

citation required.


If you have 100 units as your max output-- and there's 200 people lined up to buy-- guy numbers 199 and 200 walking away does not impact your sales, nor do you need to lower prices.

Further, your claims prices were slashed vs when they last had stalks was outright debunked and you ignored this and plowed straight on repeating your false claims on a second thread where I had to correct you on it again

Contrary to your response, this is actually very simple. In summary:

1. It is a fundamental economic principle that the balance between supply and demand is met at the equilibrium price, with a reduction in demand resulting in a lower equilibrium (i.e., selling) price.
2. It is clear that the removal of stalks is reducing demand for stalkless Teslas.
3. Elon has acknowledged that “Tesla prices must change frequently in order to match production with demand” (Confirming that Tesla prices are in fact impacted by reductions in demand)!
4. Tesla has directly and indirectly cut the prices of its cars and SUVs (including the prices of all of its stalkless models) a number of times during the first half of 2024. (It has just reported the worst profit margins it has seen in five years.)

While the full extent of the impact on the demand for its vehicles resulting from Tesla’s failure to offer its customers stalks is difficult to quantify, the Ride the Lightning poll suggests that the reduction in demand is likely between 10% and 25% of the potential sales of the affected vehicles. Fundamental economic principles, as acknowledged by Elon, inevitably requires that Tesla cut its prices in response to such reduced demand. The fact that some Tesla enthusiasts love the stalkless cars is of absolutely no relevance to the economic impact of these changes. Many other, formerly hard core, Tesla enthusiasts are now unable to recommend the vehicles to friends and family because of the changes. Many of us strongly believe, after having driven the stalkless cars, and having watched elderly family members struggle with the capacitive switches, and having fumbled around to find the turn signal buttons in certain circumstances, that the recent changes have made these vehicles less useable and less safe. Again, the fact that others disagree with these views is not relevant, Tesla needs to be trying to increase demand, and to avoid making changes that materially reduce the universe of potential customers (and the demand for their otherwise excellent cars). (The comments on the TMC and Reddit fora confirm that Tesla's changes are in fact reducing demand.)

Tesla should have learnt, from the customer response to its attempted replacement of the steering wheels in Model Ss and Model Xs with yokes, that fundamental changes to user interface can result in dramatic reductions in demand. In view of the significance of the Model Y to Tesla, it should not make the mistake of removing the stalks from the refreshed Model Y, without (at a minimum) offering stalks as an option and letting the customers decide.

Supporting materials:

1. It is a fundamental economic principle that the balance between supply and demand is met at the equilibrium price, with a reduction in demand resulting in a lower equilibrium price. While this principle is so fundamental that no citation should be required, here are a few.

3.3 Demand, Supply, and Equilibrium – Principles of Economics - In particular, see Figure 3.17(b) which illustrates that a change (e.g., the removal of stalks) which shifts the demand curve down to a lower level, will inevitably result in a reduction in the selling price.

How Does the Law of Supply and Demand Affect Prices?
3.1 Demand, Supply, and Equilibrium in Markets for Goods and Services - Principles of Economics 3e | OpenStax
9. Price Determination | Simply Economics

2. It is clear that the removal of stalks is reducing demand for Teslas.

For example:

As quoted in my previous posts, dozens of individuals have either already moved on from Teslas to other brands or have stated that they will not buy a new, stalkless Tesla, thereby confirming that these Tesla enthusiasts will be demanding fewer Tesla’s in the future.

Also as cited above, in Norway, driving schools are banning stalkless Teslas (and will not be purchasing further Model 3s in the future).

Ryan McCaffrey, of Ride the Lightning: The Tesla Unofficial Podcast posted a poll on the question of whether listeners would purchase a refreshed Model Y if it did not include stalks. 263 listeners responded. Of the 64% (around 168) who plan to buy the refreshed Model Y, 14% replied: “Yes, I want the new Model Y but I am not interested in buying it without stalks” and a further 14% replied: “I'm undecided; I need to try it without stalks first.” See: https://www.patreon.com/posts/poll-would-lack-107778967

It is indisputable that the removal of stalks is reducing demand for these cars among Tesla enthusiasts, and may well have an even greater impact on non-enthusiasts.

3. Elon Musk has acknowledged during the first half of this year that: “Tesla prices must change frequently in order to match production with demand” (confirming that Tesla prices are in fact impacted by reductions in demand, consistent with fundamental economic principles).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1782067256194633756

4. Tesla has, directly and indirectly, cut the prices of its cars and SUVs (including the prices of all of its stalkless models) a number of times during the first half of 2024. (It has just reported the worst profit margins it has seen in five years.)

In its efforts to increase demand, in addition to price cuts, Tesla has paid down financing rates, and enabled FSD transfers and transfers of lifetime supercharging, all of which reduces the net revenue received by Tesla for its vehicles. During the first half of 2024 Tesla has cut the prices of all of its of its cars and SUVs (including the price of its newly introduced stalkless Model 3, as well as the prices of the stalkless Model S and Model X).

For some examples, see:

Tesla profit margins worst in five years as price cuts, incentives weigh
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...prise-rise-second-quarter-revenue-2024-07-23/

2024 Tesla Model 3 gets another price cut in Australia
2024 Tesla Model 3 gets another price cut in Australia

Tesla Drops New Model 3 Prices by $3,000 in Canada
Tesla Drops New Model 3 Prices by $3,000 in Canada

Tesla Model 3 price watch, May 2024: Lowest entry cost yet
Tesla Model 3 price watch, May 2024: Lowest entry cost yet

Tesla cuts prices in major markets as sales fall
Tesla: EV giant cuts prices in major markets as sales fall

Tesla cuts prices across entire lineup in Canada
Tesla cuts prices across entire lineup in Canada

Tesla Reintroduces Ability to Transfer FSD and Free Lifetime Supercharging
Tesla Reintroduces Ability to Transfer FSD and Free Lifetime Supercharging

Tesla Cuts US Prices for 3 of Its Electric Vehicle Models After a Difficult Week
https://www.usnews.com/news/busines...lectric-vehicle-models-after-a-difficult-week

 

[Knightshade]

Contrary to your response, this is actually very simple. In summary:
[*]It is a fundamental economic principle that the balance between supply and demand is met at the equilibrium price, with a reduction in demand resulting in a lower equilibrium (i.e., selling) price

Then how do you explain the fact the post-stalk-removal price is not lower..... (even though you earlier, falsely, claimed it was).

The only way your claim HERE can be true, in light of the prices not being lower, is if there was no demand reduction from the stalk thing.

Which is what you've been told repeatedly but refuse to believe.


See- even you don't agree with you now!

[*]It is clear that the removal of stalks is reducing demand for stalkless Teslas.

It factually is not.

[*]Tesla has directly and indirectly cut the prices of its cars and SUVs (including the prices of all of its stalkless models) a number of times during the first half of 2024. (It has just reported the worst profit margins it has seen in five years.)

Again this is factually untrue and I cited the specific prices today vs end of 2023 (when 3 still had stalks)--- why do you keep repeating false claims?

While the full extent of the impact on the demand for its vehicles resulting from Tesla’s failure to offer its customers stalks is difficult to quantify, the Ride the Lightning poll suggests that the reduction in demand is likely between 10% and 25% of the potential sales of the affected vehicles

Again factually debunked-- there is no 10-25% drop in price---Prices went up at todays pricing since they last had stalks.

LR AWD is $1500 more expensive today than end of 2023 when it had stalks.
P is $4000 more expensive today then end of 2023 when it had stalks.


Why do you keep repeating untrue things to support your debunked argument?

. Fundamental economic principles, as acknowledged by Elon, inevitably requires that Tesla cut its prices in response to such reduced demand.

And since Model 3 prices are higher I guess those fundamental economic principles mean demand is UP without stalks, right?

End of 2023 LR AWD was $45,990. Today it's $47,490.
End of 2023 P was $50,990. Today it's $54,990.



Lemme give you some advice--- when you find yourself in a hole- stop digging.[/list]

 

[RichardC]

I am tired of dealing with your meritless responses and do not plan to further reply.

I stand by the points that I have made, and I have substantiated each of them with cogent evidence.

Then how do you explain the fact the post-stalk-removal price is not lower..... (even though you earlier, falsely, claimed it was).

The only way your claim HERE can be true, in light of the prices not being lower, is if there was no demand reduction from the stalk thing.

The refreshed Model 3 is a dramatically different vehicle than the earlier iteration. The price reductions that I refer to are relative to the earlier price of the new Model 3. The price charged for the old version is irrelevant, it was a different vehicle and was sold at a different (lower) price point.

[*]It is clear that the removal of stalks is reducing demand for stalkless Teslas.

It factually is not.

I have provided extensive evidence, including of Tesla owners who are refusing to purchase stalkless Tesla, a poll of Tesla enthusiasts and news articles regarding the refusal of driving schools to buy the stalkless vehicles. You have provided nothing, beyond your bare, unsubstantiated statement.

[*]Tesla has directly and indirectly cut the prices of its cars and SUVs (including the prices of all of its stalkless models) a number of times during the first half of 2024. (It has just reported the worst profit margins it has seen in five years.)

Again this is factually untrue and I cited the specific prices today vs end of 2023 (when 3 still had stalks)--- why do you keep repeating false claims?

The statement is true and is evidenced in the various articles that I cited. The prices of the S, X and new 3 all went down during the first six months of 2024. Regarding the 3, the refreshed Model 3 is a dramatically different vehicle than the earlier iteration. The price reductions that I refer to are relative to the earlier price of the new Model 3. The price charged for the old version is irrelevant, it was a different vehicle and was sold at a different (lower) price point.

The point would remain true and valid even if there was no reductions in the stated prices, as the reduction in demand (which has been clearly evidenced) will result in a reduction in price relative to the prices which could have been charged if demand had not been suppressed (and could prevent Tesla from being able to command higher prices). (Econ 101)

And since Model 3 prices are higher I guess those fundamental economic principles mean demand is UP without stalks, right?

End of 2023 LR AWD was $45,990. Today it's $47,490.
End of 2023 P was $50,990. Today it's $54,990.

For the third time, the 2023 Model 3 is a very different vehicle than the 2024 version. The two are not comparable.

 

[Knightshade]

I am tired of dealing with your meritless responses and do not plan to further reply.

I'm sorry you find correcting your factually wrong claims to be without merit.

I do find even more dubious your claim you won't reply further- you've already dragging this trash into two different threads (creating this one entirely for the purpose).

I stand by the points that I have made, and I have substantiated each of them with cogent evidence.

No, you have not.

You keep claiming lack of stalks forced Tesla to lower prices.

And yet the prices are higher today than they were end of 2023 when the car still had stalks.

Your inability to admit even getting this basic truth wrong in your discussion removes any value for the rest of the walls of text you keep trying to post all based on a false claim

The refreshed Model 3 is a dramatically different vehicle than the earlier iteration. The price reductions that I refer to are relative to the earlier price of the new Model 3.

Why would that matter?

If no stalks is a deal breaker it's a deal breaker. The fact it has nicer seats wouldn't change that.

Again, the fundamental arguments you make don't hold up to the slightest bit of rational thought.

On top of which it's still factually untrue
The refreshed 3 went on sale in the US Jan 9. Prices then and now:

Standard range RWD: $38,990 and....$38,990. No cut.
LR AWD $45,990 and....$47,490. Price went up $1500 like you've been told over and over already.
P $52,990 (April 23 when P was launched)- and $54,990. Price went up $2000.

Your. Claims. Are. Factually. Untrue.

a poll of Tesla enthusiasts and news articles regarding the refusal of driving schools to buy the stalkless vehicles. You have provided nothing, beyond your bare, unsubstantiated statement.

And also actual math, actual prices, and actual sales figures demonstrating your claims are not supported by hard numbers-- just you making unsupported guesses based on an internet poll.

The statement is true and is evidenced in the various articles that I cited. The prices of the S, X and new 3 all went down during the first six months of 2024

No, they did not.

Here's the pricing of every variant of the 3 with every price listed in the US in 2024. Prices are higher or the same for any trim of HIghland. They either stayed the same (RWD SR) or they went up (P and LR AWD) from launch... .(LR AWD did have one additional price increase, of $250, that only lasted a couple months- but it still ends $1500 higher than launch price).


Columns are SR-RWD, LR-AWD, and P...note the Jan 9/10 P price is the PRE refresh leftover price- launch price was in April for refresh)

Why do you keep posting untrue things my dude?

SR never moved in price. LR-AWD went up 3 times, with them dialing back out only the last $250 bump so still $1500 higher than launch... P went up 2 times and is still there $2000 higher than launch


S/X lost their stalks years ago, for the first couple years after the refresh prices kept going up on the S. Without stalks. exactly counter to your arguments. Today the MSRP on the LR S is still not any cheaper than its original launch price.

What, did buyers just not notice the lack of stalks the first ~3 years they were on the market and were happy to pay more for stalkless cars? Or is your argument again debunked by reality?

. Regarding the 3, the refreshed Model 3 is a dramatically different vehicle than the earlier iteration. The price reductions that I refer to

Are not reflected in the actual prices in the US- which are the same or higher today than at launch of the refresh.

 

[EVMeister]

Decades of muscle memory is extremely difficult to unlearn.

Not for my dad. Who is in his 70s, has driven for over 5 decades and now drives and enjoys driving a new "stalkless" Model 3. In a country and area of a country with plenty of roundabouts. I know you can't generalise (generalize) these things as not everyone is so adaptable.

 

[dronus]

Here is my experience going into this with an open mind and listening to both sides of the conversation above.

Im a first time Tesla owner and i actually waited for the stalkless Model 3 over the Stalked model. I use it as my daily driver.

Its a beautiful car, awesome to drive and even after 30 years of driving cars with stalks it took all of a day or so to learn how to use it. Due to my experience with this car and its design, Tesla has a customer and advocate for life.

My situation was going from a "normal" automatic with the paddle shifter on the centre console i would have to have learnt how to use the stalks (which are backwards here in AUS) or stalkless anyway.

Im not in the exact same boat as many of you who would have to transition from stalked to stalkless, but kinda similar from a bio-mechanical relearning of a muscle memory.

IMO It really isnt that big of a deal with an open mind to learn a new skill, if one has the neuroplasticity and can leave their ego at the door. The ability to learn a new skill can be more important than the new skill itself, its how we evolve.
The FUD about safety is just that, the buttons are easy to use.
I laugh every time someone mentions roundabouts. Usually they havent even driven a stalkless car.
It would only be a safety issue if you were unaware of the cars configuration, which you should be if you are driving it. If you cant adapt to change, and can only drive cars with stalks, then you can either buy the after market stalks, or a different car. Everyone else is just enjoying driving them, and are the envy of non-tesla owners generally

People complain about change when they are unable to accept or surrender to it. Usually ego driven. This is ok aswell, there is no right or wrong, only thinking makes it so. If your position is to stand your ground, then kudos to you.

We had the same online rhetoric when Australian car manufacturing shut down. "Must be V8, must be RWD, must offer a ute" must do everything they used to do and not innovate, then complain about lack of innovation or were not buying one anyway. "Ill never buy another car again if it isnt Aussie made" they would say; well, guess what, looks like those people wont be buying another new car

Long story short, and this is real world, i bought the Model 3 highland because is WAS stalkless, plus is has so many other features over the outgoing model. Id be surprised if im in the minority, well outside of taking samples from threads created to complain about such.

Thank you to everyone who has purchased a Tesla before me. Your investment in the company has allowed it to evolve and produce an awesome vehicle which so many of us can now enjoy. Without your investment in purchasing vehicles/stocks this wouldnt have been possible and i am truely grateful.

 

[RichardC]

Here is my experience going into this with an open mind and listening to both sides of the conversation above.

Im a first time Tesla owner and i actually waited for the stalkless Model 3 over the Stalked model. I use it as my daily driver.

Its a beautiful car, awesome to drive and even after 30 years of driving cars with stalks it took all of a day or so to learn how to use it. Due to my experience with this car and its design, Tesla has a customer and advocate for life.

Thank you for your detailed post, with which many Tesla owners agree. Your views are absolutely in the majority. The recent Ride the Lightning poll, cited above, found that 72% of respondents were prepared to "buy the refreshed Model Y with or without stalks". Your views, and the similar views of others in this, and in other threads on TMC are completely valid and are not being questioned. Further, I am not arguing that Tesla should be forced to include stalks on any of its cars.

The reason that I started this thread in the "Tesla Investor Discussions" relates to the minority of prospective purchasers, the 28% who do not share your views, at least half of whom have stated that they would not purchase a stalkless Tesla. They too are correct, as they, like you, are entitled to their views and opinions (with which I, as the owner of both stalked, and stalkless Teslas, happen to agree). By voting with their wallets these 28% of prospective purchasers could materially and adversely impact the demand for Tesla vehicles, the prices at which Tesla is able to sell its vehicles, and its profitability.

In a conversation with a salesperson at a local Tesla dealership earlier today, I asked whether customers were expressing any concerns about the removal of stalks? She replied that most customers were OK with that change, and said that she had been able to get some of those who didn't like the stalkless design to instead purchase a stalked Model Y. These comments highlight the significance of this issue for investors, in light of the pending redesign of the Model Y.

If, as is generally assumed to be the case, Tesla removes the stalks as part of its redesign of the Model Y, then the 28% of prospective purchasers will no longer be able to purchase a stalked Tesla and a majority of them will likely switch to another brand (a small minority of hard-core Tesla enthusiasts will instead likely purchase an after-market stalk kit).

The obvious solution would be for Tesla to offer stalks as an option. This would expand the number of potential buyers by up to 39% (going from the 72% of prospective purchasers who are happy with the stalkless model, to the full 100% of prospective purchasers, by satisfying the 28% who are concerned about the stalkless configuration).

Insofar as the Model Y is currently a stalked vehicle, it would seem to make sense for Tesla to make the stalks optional as part of the redesign. The stalks could either be installed at the factory, or at the service center (where the stalks could be purchased online from the Tesla Store and installed by the Tesla service center, in the same way as the Model 3/Y Automatic Garage Opener or the Model Y Tow Package).

Based on the poll, offering stalks as an option could be expected to increase demand for Tesla vehicles by hundreds of thousands of units a year, and to pay dividends in terms of both sales and margin.

 

[Knightshade]

The recent Ride the Lightning poll, cited above, found that 72% of respondents were prepared to "buy the refreshed Model Y with or without stalks".

28% who do not share your views, at least half of whom have stated that they would not purchase a stalkless Tesla.

If, as is generally assumed to be the case, Tesla removes the stalks as part of its redesign of the Model Y, then the 28% of prospective purchasers will no longer be able to purchase a stalked Tesla and a majority of them will likely switch to another brand

Your math is already problematic halfway into the post-- but it gets even worse here:

The obvious solution would be for Tesla to offer stalks as an option. This would expand the number of potential buyers by up to 39% (going from the 72% of prospective purchasers who are happy with the stalkless model, to the full 100% of prospective purchasers, by satisfying the 28% who are concerned about the stalkless configuration).

Among the reasons this is terrible math is that not only is the "pool of prospective Tesla buyers" not "folks who answered a Tesla poll mostly given to Tesla owners" that's not even the MAJORITY of that pool.... As Tesla themselves told us on the recent earnings call, In the U.S. in Q2, ~66% of Tesla's sales were to people who had never owned a Tesla before


Maybe some of them owned Hondas-- which changed from a stalk gear shifter to just buttons several years ago Either way it's another reason how heavily you lean on that internet poll hurts your arguments.

Insofar as the Model Y is currently a stalked vehicle, it would seem to make sense for Tesla to make the stalks optional as part of the redesign.

Not at all... since it's the last stalked vehicle eliminating them entirely would generate substantial savings in cost, time, supply chain hassle, etc at every factory and service center worldwide. And they've now got years of data on the S/X, and 3/4 of a year on 3 overseas, 1/2 a year in the US--- data they have vastly more detail on than you- showing them if it's the correct decision or not.

Based on the poll, offering stalks as an option could be expected to increase demand for Tesla vehicles by hundreds of thousands of units a year

.... No, it could not, based on total sales numbers.

If "half" of 28% of buyers would not buy stalkless... (and the real # would be VASTLY lower for the reasons already outlined) that's 14% of buyers... and Model Y sales worldwide were about 1.22 million vehicles... you don't get "hundreds of thousands" of added units a year using even your hilariously too generous math, and ignoring all the folks NOT polled who'd be happy to buy all the stalkless cars Tesla makes anyway.... (see again that prices on stalkless were largely the same or higher over time here already cited to you)

 

[RichardC]

• Today, customers unsatisfied with a stalkless Model S, X or 3, can instead buy a stalked Model Y (and sometimes do so, according to a Tesla sales representative).
• If the Model Y goes stalkless, then Tesla will have no stalked option for customers seeking a stalked car.
• Assuming that between 14% and 28% of prospective Tesla purchasers will refuse to purchase a stalkless Tesla (which is the best available estimate, as indicated by the poll) and given that Tesla is planning to make and sell about two million vehicles a year, 14% of two million is 280,000 and 28% of two million is 560,000 vehicles.
• On these assumptions, if stalks were to be offered as an option, then those hundreds of thousands of individuals could become additional Tesla customers and contribute to Tesla’s revenues and margins.

 

[Knightshade]

• Today, customers unsatisfied with a stalkless Model S, X or 3, can instead buy a stalked Model Y (and sometimes do so, according to a Tesla sales representative).

• 
  
  So when you previously wrote:
  

  I am tired of dealing with your meritless responses and do not plan to further reply.

  
  That wasn't true either
  
  
  
  Anyway-individual sales reps have no company-wide useful data available to them beyond what the public does- just whatever their location does and the same rumors we hear.... They don't even know their products well, mine got multiple basic facts about the 3 and S wrong when I was shopping- and if you check the various "waiting room" and "delivery" threads you'll find years and years of them giving wrong info on both the vehicles, sales #s, and company plans. They're a terrible source because of a false sense of additional knowledge.
  
  
  I can't imagine anybody who was seriously looking at an S (esp. a plaid) even glancing at a Y for example- esp. over stalks.
  
  
  

  [*]If the Model Y goes stalkless, then Tesla will have no stalked option for customers seeking a stalked car.

  
  Which is basically nobody.
  
  "I'm going car shopping, let's make a list of cars with stalks and test drive them!"
  
  Did Honda lose sales when they moved the gear shifter from a stalk to buttons? No? Why do you think Tesla is other than a random internet survey not supported in any way by actual sales or pricing data? And why do you think tesla which has better data than "rando saleman" or "rando internet poll" isn't fully aware of any impact on sales from this move they first made years ago now?
  
  
  

  [*]Assuming that between 14% and 28% of prospective Tesla purchasers will refuse to purchase a stalkless Tesla (which is the best available estimate, as indicated by the poll))

  
  
  You said half.
  
  Now you're saying it's "between half and all"
  
  Even you don't agree with you.
  
  Did the poll not have an exact number for some reason BTW? If not why are you making up whatever fits your argument at the moment?
  
  
  
  

  and given that Tesla is planning to make and sell about two million vehicles a year,

  
  We were specifcally discussing the Model Y losing sales from this (the other 3 already "lost" all the never-no-stalk buyers-despite sales figures and pricing suggesting Tesla lost 0 actual sales from it)
  
  
  Tesla sold ~ 1.22M last year.
  
  What is 14% (the actual original claim you made- half of 28%) of 1.22M?
  
  Is it more, or less, than "hundreds of thousands"?
  
  And again 66% of Q2 buyers were not the current Tesla owners who'd have likely been the poll respondents anyway-- meaning that 14% is more like 4.6%. All of whom are likely to be replaced with other buyers anyway. On top of that, the same time the stalkless Y would be arriving, the cheaper new models (also stalkless almost certainly) would be arriving too, drawing in a ton of new buyers on top.

 

[Richbot]

I have no dog in this anymore, but feel compelled to share an anecdote given I represent a pertinent data point

I am no longer a Tesla owner primarily because of a) long-term quality of our X was pretty not-great and b) replacing it with another X became extra-nope due to the control interface changes - Tesla wasn't even on the shopping list with those two demerits. Which is pretty wild when you look at how much the X improved on paper vs. the one I took delivery of in December of 2020 - it is cheaper to buy, higher performance, lighter, more feature-packed in a lot of ways, than it was when I took delivery. Still wasnt' interested because I'd seen how it held up over 3.5 years last time I bought the same car, and didn't feel like hopes and dreams were enough to justify stroking another big check.

Intuitive controls are a primary factor in at least one family's purchase decisions, anecdotally. I'm also the proud cancellor of not one but TWO cybertruck reservations, and a longtime pickup truck owner who would have gladly turned his truck and Model X into a Cybertruck if it weren't so, well, yeah no need to go over that any more in depth than it has already.

Enjoy your cars, Tesla has a lot to offer, the own-goals are painful to watch for a company that so obviously (especially obvious for me, personally observed over more than 48000 miles in under 4 years, and personally appreciating they're the only EV company really catering to the enthusiast market with any seriousness) gets so many things right/better than anybody else. It reminds me of when the office was going to go paperless. It has, in many ways but there were some very dumb overshoots...and the paper-reduced future is now, but not the paperless one

I think it's silly to attribute reduced sales to the control issue alone. Most buyers will accept a wart or two, every car has flaws that are fatal to some people and not others. Twenty is probably asking too much.

Lots of companies in the dustbin of history who left their customers behind thinking they could lead them to a promised oasis of even more customers ahead, only to find a mirage, and none of their old customers behind them either. I think they're too smart for that, or I hope they are. But when the company's value is built on projected growth in an increasingly competitive market, you have to wonder if they want to be a car company at all with some of the design decisions they've made.

 

[RichardC]

I have no dog in this anymore, but feel compelled to share an anecdote given I represent a pertinent data point

I am no longer a Tesla owner primarily because of a) long-term quality of our X was pretty not-great and b) replacing it with another X became extra-nope due to the control interface changes ...

Intuitive controls are a primary factor in at least one family's purchase decision

Thanks for your note. I am sorry that you had such bad luck with your Tesla.

I have had a much a happier experience with the four that we have owned and driven for a total of about 350,000 km over the past 12 years. I was most impressed with our 2012 Signature Performance Model S. That car aged very well, and I was amazed that the battery was still going strong after 8 years and 160,000 km (when we parted company with it). The second, a 2016 Model S also did very well, and shared the same excellent controls and user interface as the 2012, so moving between the two was seamless. Our 2020 Model Y Performance represented a step down, in terms of the ride, controls and user interface, but is still eminently usable. All of its push buttons, are physical, tactile controls which can be operated by muscle memory, and provide good tactile feedback. It also has ultrasonic sensors and radar.

Our latest, a 2024 Model X is the best in many respects (e.g., charging speed, range, ride, quiet, ventilated seats, hardware 4, and seven seats) but is also (completely unnecessarily) the most irritating to drive due to the changes that Tesla has made to cripple its controls and user interface. The initial, refreshed Model X design with the yoke and the push button horn were a complete non-starter, so we waited until we could get a round steering wheel with the horn in the middle. My principal complaints (which I acknowledge are personal to me) with the Model X relate to:

1. The removal of the stalks, and the inadequate components that replaced them. The motion of the shifter is in the opposite direction in the X and the Y (sweep up for Reverse in the Y and sweep up for Drive in the X, meaning that your muscle memory is incorrect when you move between vehicles). The replacement of the turn signal stalk with push buttons, which could potentially be acceptable if the steering wheel never had to be turned more than 90 degrees and the push buttons were large physical buttons on the right and left sides of the steering wheel (as on a number of Ferrari models), but neither of these conditions are met. (We are going to install after-market stalks to address these problems.)
2. The replacement of tactile, physical switches with less functional capacitive switches. The front door latch switches, gear selector, four way flasher, and steering wheel buttons are all unnecessarily difficult to use (which can give rise to safety concerns in some circumstances). Some owners have stuck little rubber dots on some of the buttons in order to make them easier to find and use. (Which should not be necessary on a top-of-the-line $100K+ CAD vehicle.)
3. The removal of ultrasonic bumper sensors (which are critical when parking a large vehicle such as the Model X in a garage where it needs to be accurately positioned in order to be able to open and close doors after the vehicle is parked. This issue could have been substantially mitigated if Tesla had included a front bumper camera (which may well be required for safety reasons for unsupervised FSD), but neither has been provided.

You have accurately characterized the changes that Tesla has made as “own-goals”, which is a real shame as the Tesla mission of accelerating the advent of sustainable transport is one that I wholeheartedly support. I really hope that they are going to offer customers some options (e.g., stalks, physical buttons and ultrasonic bumper sensors (or a front bumper camera)) in order to avoid dissatisfied customers and reduced demand in the future. (For some customer reactions, see: Can stalks be added to a 2021+ round steering wheel?.) I would be pleased to pay extra for the “classic” controls and believe that a sizable percentage of prospective Tesla customers would be prepared to do the same.

 

[MikeChicago]

Maybe I’m a freak but I love the yoke, love the clean look, and the lack of gear stalks

 

[RichardC]

Maybe I’m a freak but I love the yoke, love the clean look, and the lack of gear stalks

Hi Mike, Not at all. It's great that you have the option to purchase the configuration that you love on a Model S or Model X!

 

[Knightshade]

Hi Mike, Not at all. It's great that you have the option to purchase the configuration that you love on a Model S or Model X!

So you're saying these changes could also ATTRACT new buyers

(FWIW I too love the yoke look, being a Knight Rider fan from back in the day and was a bit disappointed it's not offered on the refresh 3 though I understand the reasons why they didn't offer 2 wheels)