256 after a year isn't that bad. Most of the drop should be in the first year I believe. Some are seeing 240 after one year rate range so yours is probably within spec according to Tesla. Probably just keep an eye on it.
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256 after a year isn't that bad. Most of the drop should be in the first year I believe. Some are seeing 240 after one year rate range so yours is probably within spec according to Tesla. Probably just keep an eye on it.
deonb
Active Member
No. My max range charge dropped to 255 in September of last year and I was holding out from "upgrading" the software until late December. It's stayed at 255 after the upgrade, and is still at 255 today.
Car has around 12'500 miles and is 12 months old. I think 255-ish is within spec.
I haven't done any balancing.
The service advisers I've met all think that rated range is impacted by driving style. They're wrong.
I wish Tesla would give a Model S to each service center and force each new hire to drive the car for 2 months, starting off by flying them 2000 miles away from home (at least 750 of that without SuperChargers) and have them plan their own route and drive back. "Eat your own dogfood"
I thought that one of the differences between the roadster and the S batteries is that the S does not need balancing. I also thought that one of the ways supercharging is possible is because each cell is individually charged. That means that there are leads going to each cell which would allow control to stop overcharging. The terrible part of an unbalanced pack is not the lack of charge on undercharged cell but, the extra charge on overcharged cells which can severely reduce their life. Tesla's claim to fame is the technology which increases the life span of the batteries so, they would not allow overcharging and hence they would not allow an unbalanced pack.
All this is my own conclusions based on various reads.
Finally, check out this kid, if he can build a pack that auto-balances itself, why couldn't Tesla.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_gj4dASl0
All this is my own conclusions based on various reads.
Finally, check out this kid, if he can build a pack that auto-balances itself, why couldn't Tesla.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_gj4dASl0
I'm at 125-126 rated miles now after 6 1/2 months and 7800 miles. I was at 144 when I got the car. I've been reading this thread and the one on the Tesla Motors forum and while the existing range is plenty for me, I am concerned as to how much more the range will decrease.
No, all multi cell packs need to be balanced. What did you see that lead you to think the S doesn't need to be balanced?
The model S has balancing built into it as part if it's BMS (battery management system). This system should balance the cells. Some of the debate now is what causes that balance cycle to kick on. In many ways that system is probably very similar to the video you linked.
Peter
The model S has balancing built into it as part if it's BMS (battery management system). This system should balance the cells. Some of the debate now is what causes that balance cycle to kick on. In many ways that system is probably very similar to the video you linked.
Peter
deonb
Active Member
Watch the video in this thread, and you'll sleep much easier at night:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...atteries-die-And-how-to-improve-the-situation
I do think that Tesla can do a favor to the 40 guys and instead of charging to 70%, it charges to 140 miles in range. That's just a software thing, and won't hurt any future sales, nor upset any existing non-40 users (I don't think).
But won't that result in the battery becoming more and more unbalanced, which is not good for battery health, or is balancing irrelevant to battery health?
My point exactly (though I suggested 136). To markb's question: since the total charge will likely say under 70% total capacity my guess is that balancing would not be an issue. On the other hand it all depends on how the individual cells are charged. I'd like to think that that balancing is needed only as the SOC moves toward 100% to prevent maxing out individual cells. If SOC never reaches these levels, then no problem.
I hesitate to mention another explanation for the range drop that some 40kwh folks are seeing. I have no facts to support this theory and I certainly hope it is not the case. This is the possibility that, as the battery cells/components are tested during production they are split into three streams. Those that fail the test, those that pass, and those that are marginal. Obviously failed component are rejected. However, given the short supply of battery components at the time the 40's were being built, there might of been a temptation to use marginal cells in the 40's with the logic that the pack was over designed. Again, I have no data on this but we do see this sort of thing happen in production.
Same experience with my 40. Started at 140 in June, down to 126 today after 16k miles.
OK, so we got our cars at the same time (mine was delivered 9-May) but your mileage is more than twice mine (I just checked and have a little over 3,500 miles). With all the discussion here, I decided to do a max charge (max slider) this morning. The result is that it read 136 rated miles. It is now 134, after about 6 hours. This tends provide a counter example of partial charging cause since that is what I've been doing all along. However my case is different than Hans: 67% for him is close our max charge and I've been averaging more like 48% recently.
Some time data on my charging - which happens every night (except a 3-6 times I forgot to plug in). First charge (as a 60kWh) on 24 May produced 211 rated miles with range/max charge. 13-June produced 142 rated miles with a max charge. 12-Sep produced 139 rated miles with a max charge. 8-Oct produced 138 rated miles with a max charge. 11-Nov produced 138 rated miles with a max charge. 21-Dec produced 134 rated miles with a max charge. In looking over my records and, after the 40kwh SW limitation was implemented, I see now that many of these range/max charges were over several days (since I didn't change the slider back down right away).
So, the question is whether I can expect my range to drop 16 or so rated miles over the next 5,500 miles. Do you recall your largest odometer reading when you were at the 136 level? If it was comparable to 3,500 miles than I should expect the same drop and I'll be upset too.
In any case, I'll be watching your efforts closely and rooting for you. Your range drop is more than disappointing; it is evidence of a larger issue that Tesla needs to fix. I fully expected my range to drop over time, that was known when we got our cars. But I also know there are limits on reasonable degradation that come from a range of variables. Given everything I've read and studied about the batteries, the 40kwh limited battery has to have tighter limits on degradation than the other sizes. We just don't push the limits like the other configurations and that is a good thing when it comes to battery longevity. Seeing the opposite happen is a real concern.
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I realize it has been noted ad nauseum already, but I have certainly noted that my 60 seems much better now at accurately estimating cool and cold weather range. My "depleted" range (10-12 miles after 10k miles) has magically returned with the return of warm weather today in Texas. I remind folks to check their ideal range for now and if you are still having rated range problems when it is warm out, then panic! 
I realize it has been noted ad nauseum already, but I have certainly noted that my 60 seems much better now at accurately estimating cool and cold weather range. My "depleted" range (10-12 miles after 10k miles) has magically returned with the return of warm weather today in Texas. I remind folks to check their ideal range for now and if you are still having rated range problems when it is warm out, then panic!
1. My range has dropped 15%, not your 5%. Very big difference.
2. My ideal range, yes ideal range, has dropped the same 15%, from 160 to 136.
I will guess that my mileage was somewhat comparable to yours at 136, but that is only a guess. You keep way better records than I do.
Hans,
Will you let me know what service ctr said. I have been trying to address the same problems that you have. I drive 60 kwh and did a range charge . Range went from 207 to 193. My standard charge went from 187 to 173. I avg 307 kw/mile.
Tesla telling me that my battery is normal and weather and your driving habits determines your range. I have been baying my battery to prolong its longevity and only charges what I need. My round trip to work is only 35 miles. I'm hoping a new updates will address the problem. I have try various methods and still have not improve my driving range. Furthermore, the last updates makes my car regenerate less. They told me that it will lessen the wear of the rear tires. I feel that these updates are taking what we love about the cars. Hoping Tesla will address these charging problems.
hans
P631
I should get the car tomorrow. I've been traveling and then sick so it's been in the shop longer than it needed to be. I will post a followup.
BS IMO! The latest update for some reason left regen very weak. I can't recall how you reset it - I think turn regen to weak then strong, then reboot the middle dash. Regen back to normal levels.
fluxemag
Member
We didn't get winter this year in Phoenix, so I doubt that 64 degrees was causing a problem. That and 300Wh/mi takes all other factors out of consideration. In fact, I got more actual driving range last summer when it was 115 outside and I drove like an idiot, around 375Wh/mi. I think there is a buffer beneath 0 miles rated, inability to balance the pack and a miscalculation by the software on what percentage of the 60 capacity to give the 40 owners.
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That is definitely different than mine, I'm on 5.8. I don't recall ever having the limiter line show up before, and it showed up at 30 miles rated remaining. Keep in mind is was a nice 64 degree afternoon.
glhs272
Unnamed plug faced villian
I was running FW4.5 for a long time. Have since updated to FW5.8. Regen is not significantly less. At most just doesn't ramp up as fast, but not really noticeable.
I think Tesla should kill the charge slider. Just have 3 settings: Storage (50%SOC), normal (90%SOC), and Trip/Balance (100%SOC). The people here "babying" their packs are doing more harm than good. The range numbers prove it. The 40kwh guys, well... I feel for you.
Have faith in Tesla engineering. If 90% was bad for your pack, then Tesla wouldn't use that for daily charging. Their electrolytes are good and full of the "secret sauce".
Update:
Anecdotally, it seems charging to 90% keeps the pack from getting too out of balance. It doesn't seem to balance the pack, but slows the rate of imbalance... if that makes sense. When I got my car, for a while I just did 90% charges for a few months as I got used it's range and capabilities. Then after a few months I started charging only to 60-70% thinking I was helping the pack. But, I started seeing a precipitous decline in range. After a few range charging sessions that range appears to have come back. Now for the last two months I have only been 90% daily charging. I am not seeing much if any range loss doing that. But may need more time to be sure.
I think Tesla should kill the charge slider. Just have 3 settings: Storage (50%SOC), normal (90%SOC), and Trip/Balance (100%SOC). The people here "babying" their packs are doing more harm than good. The range numbers prove it. The 40kwh guys, well... I feel for you.
Have faith in Tesla engineering. If 90% was bad for your pack, then Tesla wouldn't use that for daily charging. Their electrolytes are good and full of the "secret sauce".
Update:
Anecdotally, it seems charging to 90% keeps the pack from getting too out of balance. It doesn't seem to balance the pack, but slows the rate of imbalance... if that makes sense. When I got my car, for a while I just did 90% charges for a few months as I got used it's range and capabilities. Then after a few months I started charging only to 60-70% thinking I was helping the pack. But, I started seeing a precipitous decline in range. After a few range charging sessions that range appears to have come back. Now for the last two months I have only been 90% daily charging. I am not seeing much if any range loss doing that. But may need more time to be sure.
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