Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

For those owners unhappy with drop in maximum charged range

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I hesitate to mention another explanation for the range drop that some 40kwh folks are seeing. I have no facts to support this theory and I certainly hope it is not the case. This is the possibility that, as the battery cells/components are tested during production they are split into three streams. Those that fail the test, those that pass, and those that are marginal. Obviously failed component are rejected. However, given the short supply of battery components at the time the 40's were being built, there might of been a temptation to use marginal cells in the 40's with the logic that the pack was over designed. Again, I have no data on this but we do see this sort of thing happen in production.

Interesting point. Imagine you're in QC, for Tesla, with limited supply and need to set a cutoff for outright cell rejection. You already know the buffer to 60kwh, on the 40kwh, cars is enough that you can use more cells that hold marginally less voltage. I'm only noodling your statement, but it would seem reasonable not only to use the cells that test out to a bottom capacity tier, but also to allow more variation among the pack. The flip side would be a greater need for balancing, right? It may not just be a SOC, lack of full-charging, issue.

It oversimplifies, but would you rather have "40" cells with individual voltage characteristics all in an upper band, or "60" cells with lower results and potentially greater variability, set to push the capacity of "40"? I'd still be happy, as a 40kwh owner, to have the extra cells, but it depends on QC choices I am helping to create speculation about.

Owning an EV for more than one winter, and recently getting involved lithium batteries in RC cars, I can say I officially know boo about Tesla batteries. The EV's range, however, did go back up with temps last year (in a way that a great big swell of Tesla owners have yet to experience). It will be nice when Tesla's battery diagnostics are less guarded. It can't be much more than the same process, times a few thousand 18650's.
 
Here is attempt #2 for full charge to zero run. This one took place over several days, but the temp was between 60-75 the whole time with sleep mode, so vampire drain was minimal. I wasn't quite able to hit 300Wh/mi this time, but 302 is within reason. Starting from 126 miles rated, I reached "Charge Now" after 100.5 miles. A few moments later I got the "Battery Power Very Low, Air Conditioning Restricted" message, but I had just pulled into the charger at work so no problem. All in total I used 30.3kWh on my full charge, compared to 32.1kWh in the first attempt. I'm going to be generous and say that without vampire I could have probably gotten closer to 35kWh in both runs. Someone really needs to do the full run without stopping, I just haven't had time because I'm moving at the end of the week.
photo 1(1).JPG
photo 2(2).JPG
 
Just another data point:

I have 6500 miles on mine over the last 6 months.

I always charge to 90% with about a half-dozen Range Charges over that time.
No "pack balancing".

Just Range Charged and still have 300 Ideal / 264 Rated miles.
Makes the "babying" argument to keep charge at 50-60% less convincing.

IMG_2806.jpg


IMG_2807.jpg
 
Just another data point:

I have 6500 miles on mine over the last 6 months.

I always charge to 90% with about a half-dozen Range Charges over that time.
No "pack balancing".

Just Range Charged and still have 300 Ideal / 264 Rated miles.
Makes the "babying" argument to keep charge at 50-60% less convincing.

Those of us who baby our batteries are looking at impacts several years down the road, not six months. I don't think you can draw any meaningful conclusions after only six months and 6,500 miles. There are too many other variables in play.
 
Well I got my S60 back from its annual service. I specifically asked them to check out the battery for degradation.

This is what the report says:

"Concern: Customer states: Inspect battery for unusual degradation, Vehicle shows 191 rated miles immediately after completion of a full (100%) charge and 167 rated miles on a 90% charge. This is 9-10% lower than when the vehicle was new.

Cause: customer education

Correction: Battery Assembly General Diagnostics

reviewed vehicle logs and determined no issue with battery. Rated range is based on many factors (driving habits, temperature, hvac usage etc.) the range is estimated slightly lower in the current software version. This will be addressed in a future FW release
"

Sounds like a repeat of the same misinformation about (estimated) rated range being effected by driving habits. In retrospect I wish I had given them the ideal range numbers and asked them to explain that reduction. They would at least have to come up with a different excuse. I tried to get a better explanation verbally but failed. I am at a loss to understand why they can't just look, see, and state that the cells in the pack are out of balance. I would have thought that information would be in their diagnostic output.

I do believe they checked out the pack and found no errors, and I do think my pack is just out of balance and has not lost the range. I'm just at a loss to understand how to re-balance my pack since charging to 100% and leaving it for a few hours doesn't do the trick for me. I will try a few more successive 100% charges to see if it makes a difference. Clearly though their is something coming in a future firmware that is related to this issue or they wouldn't have noted it in writing.
 
Well I got my S60 back from its annual service. I specifically asked them to check out the battery for degradation.

This is what the report says:

"Concern: Customer states: Inspect battery for unusual degradation, Vehicle shows 191 rated miles immediately after completion of a full (100%) charge and 167 rated miles on a 90% charge. This is 9-10% lower than when the vehicle was new.

Cause: customer education

Correction: Battery Assembly General Diagnostics

reviewed vehicle logs and determined no issue with battery. Rated range is based on many factors (driving habits, temperature, hvac usage etc.) the range is estimated slightly lower in the current software version. This will be addressed in a future FW release
"

Sounds like a repeat of the same misinformation about (estimated) rated range being effected by driving habits. In retrospect I wish I had given them the ideal range numbers and asked them to explain that reduction. They would at least have to come up with a different excuse. I tried to get a better explanation verbally but failed. I am at a loss to understand why they can't just look, see, and state that the cells in the pack are out of balance. I would have thought that information would be in their diagnostic output.

I do believe they checked out the pack and found no errors, and I do think my pack is just out of balance and has not lost the range. I'm just at a loss to understand how to re-balance my pack since charging to 100% and leaving it for a few hours doesn't do the trick for me. I will try a few more successive 100% charges to see if it makes a difference. Clearly though their is something coming in a future firmware that is related to this issue or they wouldn't have noted it in writing.

I have had success in balancing the pack by doing the 100% charge, let it sit for maybe 5 to 10 mins, then drive it back down to 90%. Also, the car won't register an improvement until the next range charge. Try doing at least 3 range charge cycles. If you don't see any improvement you might also try doing a range charge at a supercharger. If you still don't see an improvement, you may have in fact real degradation. Earlier in this thread I posted the improvement in my car when I tried this, so it should work for you too, but it's your car so feel free to ignore me. :)
 
I am glad (not to be alone) but sad knowing they served me the same response.

The following is my story: (With a 85kwh battery)

Max charge rate drop from 266 miles down to 250 miles.

I received my Model S in March 2013 (with now 15600 miles on the counter)

I used to be able to charge at 266 miles, I am now down to 250. (Service said it was software related, no issues with the battery)

Another tesla owner came to charge at my place (He got the car in November 2013) and max charged at 271 miles with the same software version!

This confirmed me it is not software related! (Thank you Thierry for charging at my place) Regardless of this information, Tesla Service keep on repeating the same story.

Software version: 5.8.4 (1.49.57) VIN: P06092

Joining the club of concerned Tesla owners. :(
 
I am glad (not to be alone) but sad knowing they served me the same response.

The following is my story: (With a 85kwh battery)

Max charge rate drop from 266 miles down to 250 miles.

I received my Model S in March 2013 (with now 15600 miles on the counter)

I used to be able to charge at 266 miles, I am now down to 250. (Service said it was software related, no issues with the battery)

Another tesla owner came to charge at my place (He got the car in November 2013) and max charged at 271 miles with the same software version!

This confirmed me it is not software related! (Thank you Thierry for charging at my place) Regardless of this information, Tesla Service keep on repeating the same story.

Software version: 5.8.4 (1.49.57) VIN: P06092

Joining the club of concerned Tesla owners. :(

mlaureti, we would also be curious to know your typical charging habits. Do you charge to 90% all the time? How often do you range charge? How often do you supercharge?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for your reply! Where can I check my battery type? (I search for Battery type and did not find anything)

There is a label that shows battery type and revision number. This label is located on the battery by the front passenger side wheel well. For example, here is what mine looks like:
TeslaBatteryLabel.JPG
 
Well ****, I saw this thread and got paranoid. I've also been babying my car (it's a 60kWh), and have been charging to 60-70% every day (about a 120 mile charge) for the last few months. I noticed that this charge level has dropped (125 down to 115 or something like that), so I did a full non-range charge to test it, and my rated range on a full charge has dropped from about 178-179 miles, where it was pretty stable for months, down to 162 miles today. That represents about a 10% capacity drop.

I've had it 7 months, 7600 miles on it. What the hell.
 
Well ****, I saw this thread and got paranoid. I've also been babying my car (it's a 60kWh), and have been charging to 60-70% every day (about a 120 mile charge) for the last few months. I noticed that this charge level has dropped (125 down to 115 or something like that), so I did a full non-range charge to test it, and my rated range on a full charge has dropped from about 178-179 miles, where it was pretty stable for months, down to 162 miles today. That represents about a 10% capacity drop.

I've had it 7 months, 7600 miles on it. What the hell.

Yep, same for me when I was charging 60-70%. Luckily, after doing a few range charges, the range came back.

It remains to be seen what is best for long term degradation. If the range loss is only temporary, then perhaps it is still OK to only charge 60-70%. But if the range doesn't come back, then...

So to those that have seen this issue when charging to 60-70%, I would be curious to see if you can claw that range back like I was able to.

I have been studying what is best for lithium Ion cells, the question I have is what is best for the cell always = what is best for the pack? Time will tell. For now I am sticking to 90% charges and will keep reporting on any loss of range if I see it.
 
I've got a 40 KWh MS and saw 141 as the highest rated range when I got the car back at the end of May. Currently I see a max rated range of 115 to 118. I haven't done anything about it yet even though it is about an 18% range hit. I have just assumed it has to do with the colder temps (in New England) and changes in the firmware algorithm.

I'll keep watching for more concrete info on this thread, but until it warms up, I will just be waiting and watching.

Does anyone else with a 40 see this low of a rated range? Do I win the prize for the lowest range? :)
 
Thanks for the reply. Service center is telling me the same thing. I am frustrated with these issues. Did a std charge today , temp is 70 degree. I got 172 miles and lost 4 miles to 168 after one hour of car sitting in my garage. It might be a firmware problem. I am on 5.8.4. Let me know if your range improves
 
Looks like my battery is as good as new after six months and 5,500 miles. VIN 16XXX, P85, B revision battery.


I baby the pack and typically don't charge more than 50%-60%, don't run the car below 40-50 miles remaining... I just charged to 100% (you guys got the best of me) and here's what I see:

Screen Shot 2014-02-14 at 1.18.53 PM.png
 
Looks like my battery is as good as new after six months and 5,500 miles. VIN 16XXX, P85, B revision battery.


I baby the pack and typically don't charge more than 50%-60%, don't run the car below 40-50 miles remaining... I just charged to 100% (you guys got the best of me) and here's what I see:

View attachment 43299

That's good. At least one positive data point for charging 60-70%.
 
Yep, same for me when I was charging 60-70%. Luckily, after doing a few range charges, the range came back.

It remains to be seen what is best for long term degradation. If the range loss is only temporary, then perhaps it is still OK to only charge 60-70%. But if the range doesn't come back, then...

So to those that have seen this issue when charging to 60-70%, I would be curious to see if you can claw that range back like I was able to.

I have been studying what is best for lithium Ion cells, the question I have is what is best for the cell always = what is best for the pack? Time will tell. For now I am sticking to 90% charges and will keep reporting on any loss of range if I see it.


I wish I knew if this degradation by charging 60-70% all the time is actually permanently bad for the battery, or is it just a temporary thing that will come back later if I need it to... That is, doing range charges is supposedly bad for the battery pack. If this 60-70% babying is only bad for the number I'm looking at when I look at the rated range, I'm not sure I want to do actual damage by doing multiple range charges just to make it look better.

Do you think I could get the range back by doing 90% charges, or do I really need to do the range charge to balance the pack or whatever it is?