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Forbes - Power Outage - Another "Smoking Battery" story

Discussion in 'News' started by graham, Oct 7, 2008.

  1. graham

    graham Active Member

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    Fairly negative article in Forbes: Power Outage - Forbes.com the gist of which is: "Plug in cars are very limited and too expensive." In todays market, it is somewhat valid criticism. But as a criticism on Tesla it brings up the old "Smoking Battery" story, which seems to continue to pop up with most negative Tesla stories.

    Tesla should go further to try and refute this tale - it seems to get a lot of press whenever an article is written which wants to be negative
     
  2. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    My, it has to be bad news about EVERYTHING at the moment, doesn't it. Judging from his photo, Jerry Flint is a man in need of a smile or two.
     
  3. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    He kinda looks like an old and decrepid John Luc Pickard only sadder - is that really a word or would it be more sad ...:confused:
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #4 vfx, Oct 7, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2008
    Old man, old thinking.

    Another year older and he would have been driving steam.

    He writes' "The industry has to find out how much people will pay for this type of "limited"--I cannot think of another word--automobile."

    A-u-t-o-m-o-b-i-l-e It's not that hard, Pops.

    " and some of us just do not believe its battery system--an army of interconnected small lithium-ion batteries"

    Like the ones in your hearing aid.

    He says," Both companies seem to be positioning these cars as commuter cars--vehicles that you can operate on battery power just to travel a short distance to the office or to the train station."

    Train Station?!

    Pressing the velocitator and decelatrix on his on his petroleum distillate, preambulator must have taxed the gay man's brain.
    Perhaps he should watch more picto-Utube on the internets.

    "This is just the beginning, of course. Ten more years from now, electric car technology might be significantly better than at present."

    When you are well on your way to converting into oil.
     
  5. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Jerry Flint is the same guy who wrote "thermodynamics is what killed the electric car."

    Apparently nobody informed him that electric cars don't have heat engines. Thermodynamics are not a factor. Electrodynamics would be a more relevant discipline.

    GSP
     
  6. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Ehh... not to be a stickler, but thermodynamics are always a factor. Like it or not, the topics of energy efficiency and transduction fall under the umbrella of the subject labeled as Thermodynamics. My guess is it's an historical point and that likely these principles where first quantitatively illustrated with heat engines. Although heat transfer is not always involved, the "principles of thermodynamics" permiate all of physics.
     
  7. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    My biggest problem was with this paragraph:

    The Chevy Volt will, in fact, have hundreds of miles of range and the ability to carry several (3) passengers and cargo, too. Did the author somehow fail to understand that? This is "limited" in what particular way, for the person who owns it?

    It's true that drivers are not used to plugging in a vehicle at night. They're used to doing something considerably less convenient: stopping at a gas station. This is an advantage of electric cars, not an obstacle.

    I think he is on target in calling the Toyota 10-mile PPHEV Prius a flop. Now keep in mind, I think the current non-plug-in hybrids make even less sense -- but they're selling because their aren't many other good options available for people to buy. That will no longer be true from about 2011 onwards.
     
  8. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  9. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Someone needs to tell mr Flint that GM is a global car company. There are plenty of countries that have different requirements for their cars than the average american consumer...

    After all people seem more than willing to pay for $70 000 Porsches that can't carry any cargo or passengers to speak of...

    Anyway as VFX said old AND bitter :)

    Cobos
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #11 TEG, Oct 8, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2008
    In 2001 he told them to forget globalism

    Apparently he is a fan of Porsche as a company.

    -------

    How about this wrong prediction!:
    umm, well...
     
  11. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yes, so true - but also don't forget that we don't have an infrastructure to refill them as quickly as a gas tank either.
     
  12. GSP

    GSP Member

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    True, but I'm pleased to see that this limitation is under attack from several fronts:

    1) EREVs (i.e. Chevy Volt): While not a pure EV, they do offer exactly the same "recharge" rate as any gasoline car, at the very same service stations!

    2) 150-250 mi range EV (i.e. Telsa): If you have enough range to drive around town all day, who cares how long it takes to recharge at night (as long as its done before you leave in the morning)? You will need another car for long trips, but many families already have only one car that is practical for long trips. The other (gas) car is too small, or too old, or both.

    3) 1 hour fast chargers: This was mentioned in a Tesla town hall, and it was a revelation to me. By redefining "quick" from 6 min to 60 min, the power requirement is cut by an order of magnitude. This allows 3-phase power, already available at large buildings, to feed the charger. By using a high voltage DC output directly to the battery, the size of the power cord, and the on-vehicle components, is manageable (basically the same as the existing battery to inverter cables). 1 hour is not as good as a gas car, but it is a reasonable time to stop and shop, sight-see, or eat lunch. Mitsubishi uses exactly this approach on their tiny iMiEV, with a 30-min 3-phase external fast charger. The iMiEV also has an on-board charger that accepts 110/220 VAC.

    4) Super long range EVs: Martin's predicted improvement in Li-Ion battery energy density (8%/yr if I remember correctly), will make 500-600mi range possible (for a price). With range greater than what normal people would drive in one day, they could recharge overnight. In the spirit of Moore's Law, I'd like to call this Li-Ion energy improvement "Eberhard's Law." :smile:

    GSP

    PS. Please don't bring up "fast battery swaps." I'm shocked that "project better place" and Nissan/Renault plan to do this. I'm also very willing to bet they will have to abandon this impractical solution.
     
  13. graham

    graham Active Member

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    I am not sure the stigma of "inconvenient refilling" for EVs will go away terribly quickly. Most ICE cars today seem to get 300-350 miles on a "tank". That is considered convenient because you don't often go farther than that in a day, and if you do you can refill in 10 minutes. Today's Roadster (while amazing for an EV) still gets far less than that.

    As batteries get larger, it is going to be difficult to do fast recharging. The size of the cables alone will be huge... Today it is convenient to recharge at home - but home rechargers are not going to be able to easily go higher than 70 Amps. This will limit how fast you can recharge a battery no matter its size. If you charge outside the home, it is no longer convenient and that is when you need the very fast recharges.

    How big does a battery have to be before it the stigma goes away? I think cars will need to get 1000 miles on a charge, or have some way of recharging while on the road that takes only 15 minutes or less.

    Until then there will be many people who will believe they still need gas.
     
  14. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Sure, if we need to replace every last gas car with an EV, then EV will have to have 5 min recharge, 1000 mi range, be able to tow a 12,000 lb trailer, etc. But, EV don't need to do this to be successful. After all, gas cars haven't completely replaced the horse, bicycle, commuter trains, and walking, either! :)

    1 hr recharge will be acceptable to many people, especially if combined with 250-350 mi range. When I travel, I combine gas and food into one stop, and it always takes about 1 hr to eat. I also don't like to drive more than 400-500 mi/day. So 1 hr recharge would work for me. It doesn't work for everyone, but it doesn't have to. We still have about 1/2 of the oil supply left, so they can drive gas cars (or EREVs! :) for several decades. 1 hr recharge will have much less impact on the grid (compared to 10-15 min). All that is required is for shops and restaurants to install chargers (small problem) and car manufacturers to agree on a DC fast recharge standard (BIG problem).

    With the roadster already at 245 mi range, and with the iMiEV equipped with both HVDC fast recharge port (as well as on-board 110/220 VAC charger), we are "very close" to practical long distance pure EV travel (for myself at least). "Very close" is a relative term, I'll likely buy a Chevy Volt while I'm waiting for affordable long range EVs, and the recharging infrastructure.

    A practical limit of about 70A at 220V for home charging will be a constraint. Since the roadster can get a 245 mi charge in 3.5 hr, 10 hr would provide a 700 mi charge. No problem, execpt this is only for a tiny 2 seat car. A 400 mi range full size SUV may need more than 10 hrs. This can be helped a little by increasing the charger efficiency (not a priority for Tesla). So, this is a problem if we need to replace every gas car, but we have many decades before this will be necessary.

    This re-charging discussion may seem a little off-topic, but it can also be considered a rebuttal to Jerry Flint's many columns deriding the practically of EVs.

    GSP
     
  15. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    #16 malcolm, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    It's all too easy to look at BEVs through ICE-tinted spectacles.

    If and when future BEVs come fitted with massive capacity batteries, they would be supplied ready-charged from the manufacturer/dealer. The nightly recharge would only need to be a top-up and wouldn't require an expensive, dedicated 3-phase supply. Longer 220V recharges could be scheduled at the owner's convenience, maybe Saturday night/Sunday morning, once a fortnight.

    This is especially true during the transitional period where one of the family cars is a BEV and the other is an ICE. The BEV doesn't actually need to have a massive range, even if the battery can provide it, since the availability of a second (or third) conventional vehicle takes the pressure right off.

    It isn't hard to imagine the following scenario: BEVs for weekdays; ICEs (or EREVs) for weekend trips. I see no need for fast re-"fueling" or mega-range in BEVs while conventional ICE vehicles are all around to provide this functionality if and when it is needed.

    In any case the technology isn't really ready for BEVs to become the "dominant transporter". Maybe the technology will improve, but equally important is the gradual change in driving habits and the shape of communities which they will encourage in their supporting role.

    The internal combustion engine has shaped many nations - especially America. Maybe the BEV will encourage a gradual civic re-mold.
     
  16. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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  17. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #18 vfx, Mar 19, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009
    This was not an Ev sceptic article it was a confession of why he is so anti-EVT
    And boy is he bitter.

    Being burned by this event was the thing that has stuck in his craw all these years. The world is changing around him with new battery technology that he has in his pocket and in the laptop he wrote this story with, electric cars on the road, and a dozen manufactures all ramping up their electric models.

    Back in 1966 we imported probably 30 percent of our gasoline now it's over 70 percent, much of it from people who use the money for bad things. We now know about that smog is changing the world's climate. There are new countries that will be using gasoline at record rates and the oil we make it from has effectively run out, something else that causes the price to "inexplicably" jump to $5.00 a gallon.


    The science is there, the reason are many. This codger just needs to go away already.
     
  18. SteveF

    SteveF Member

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    He will, in 5 to 10 years... :wink:
     
  19. graham

    graham Active Member

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    Sigh... there is just so much wrong with this article, I don't know where to start...

    HA! :biggrin:
     

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