Ford Focus EV

[ElSupreme]

Congratulations on your purchase ElSupreme!

Does this make your household all-electric now? Except maybe the lawnmower?

GSP

I have a Honda gasoline lawn mower (that's the only thing left), and based on how Honda dealt with us, with my wife's car, I am temped to just outright sell the thing. And a NG furnace, and water heater, will be replaced with heat pump when the AC compressor dies.

The big advantage Tesla has is consistency in this regard. But to be honest, I've had very positive dealer experiences. My last Cadillac dealer would pick my car up and drop it off at work for me, always cleaned it and never overcharged or sold me crap I didn't need. In fact, I had free maintenance and warranty coverage for the 4 years I owned the car, so it didn't even cost me anything. If I needed a loaner, they always supplied me with another Cadillac at no charge. I do recognize that this is not universal so again, advantage Tesla.

I agree. The dealership I dealt with was actually pretty good. I probably got a good deal, but it didn't feel like it, as I worked hard for a couple of small price decreases. And they tried to sell me on extended warranty (at least the guy said, "these cars don't really need maintenance, so don't get the maintenance plan") and GAP insurance at very inflated prices, but it was a soft sell. Some of the other dealerships were not nearly as tolerable. I showed up in a Model S, ask to see the only fully electric cars, and display extensive knowledge about them. I still get tons of misinformation (pro EV but still some outright lies) about how they work. How many they sell. How far they will go. Then they try to sell me on a GT-R (it was nice looking but not for $140k), SVT-Raptors :scaredAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA) , and Shelby Cobras. The best of which got ~15 EPA combined fuel economy.

And one dealer tried to pass a very visible (that I told him I knew about) manufacturer discount as a deduct from sticker (when they were exactly sticker). Tried to tell me the 0% APR deal wasn't good and I should finance it through them. And kept trying to steer me to 'monthly payment' instead of out-the-door-price! Wouldn't give me his offer in an email, and then verbally offered to undercut the other dealer $300 (on a $30k+ purchase ). He also stole me from a different salesman when I got there!



Although I did learn that driving a Model S onto a Porsche lot will get me a EZ solo test drive in a 911. I'll end up doing that sometime this summer! :biggrin:

 

[hcsharp]

Congratulations on your 2nd EV! Have you tried out the voice commands yet? My wife likes "SeriusXM: Bluegrass" and it turns on the satellite radio to the Bluegrass station. It's cool how the FFE comes fully loaded in the base version. I think the only two options are leather and a couple of paint colors. Std equipment includes satellite radio, proximity detectors, nice backup cam, a good remote app, etc.

Despite all the std features, it won't take long to notice that it's not a Tesla. It's a lot more than just range. It constantly annoys me when I leave the charge port door open and drive off. There's no warning whatsoever when you do this. And with all the cool LEDs around the charge port, they fail to illuminate the socket at night so you can insert the connector. Duh. But for the price, it's hard to beat. A pretty nice EV overall.

 

[DLCarrington]

Another FFE driver here! I leased mine for the same $$ I was putting in my F350 diesel tank each month. I've been a long-time EV enthusiast and followed (but never leased) the EV1 project in the 90s. I had an electric street legal golf cart years ago and FINALLY got the Ford Focus Electric last year. After Ford finally fixed the Stop Safely Now (SSN) MAJOR problem, the car has been fantastic. I have over 11K miles and it's my commuter so I'm not too concerned about not having the fast DC charge port. I do think that Ford should add the fast charge port to match the Leaf so longer trips can be taken like Phoenix to Tucson without a 4-hour stop. I am a HUGE Tesla fan and am hoping to get a Model X, so I can let my wife and daughter drive the FFE.

 

[rabar10]

Thought I would share some feedback I received on a few Ford Focus Electric technical questions I asked. Turns out a member of the local EV club is also the "EV Tech Specialist" at the dealer conglomerate through which I'm leasing my FFE My questions are quoted, then his answers follow.

Overall I love the car, but here are some nit-picks:

- The electric brake vacuum pump is louder now than on first delivery. Didn't notice it at all when brand-new, but now when I first open the car door or hit the brake etc. and the HVAC is off, I can clearly hear it humming away.

"It's very common to hear that "my quiet electric car is not silent". That being said the electric motor running your vacuum pump for the brakes may have a loose isolation mount or something close that it's vibrating against. It is a piston pump and it does vibrate. "

- It feels like Ford artificially limited torque from 0-20mph or so. I know the permanent-magnet synchronous motor can provide the full 180 ft-lbs of torque at 0 RPM, but on dry/flat ground there is a definite ramping up of torque from when the vehicle is stopped up to 15-20mph. Curious to know if this is to make things easier inside the motor-controller (i.e. avoid combination of high amps at low voltages to the motor), or if it was a design choice to make the car feel a bit more like a traditional engine/vehicle.

"The low-speed torque is electronically limited, 180 foot-pounds at zero RPMs would spin the tires in loose gravel or wet pavement and be dangerous for many drivers in many driving circumstances."

- Similarly, there's a slight lag or pause when the drivetrain switches between forward and reverse torque, i.e. acceleration and regenerative braking/deceleration. It's maybe a half-second or so, but it's noticeable, and is there both when lifting off the accelerator when in L (the L "gear" puts more regen on the accelerator so it's more noticeable then), and also when foot is off the accelerator (i.e. regenerating, slowing down) , then hitting the pedal -- I would expect forward torque to be available near-instantly, but that lag is noticeable and has occasionally made me mis-judge how fast I could pull out in traffic etc. Specifically, that lag is not there if I'm accelerating slowly and then mash the pedal down -- since it's just going from less torque to more torque, this is near-instant, but as soon as it has to cross that zero-torque, zero-amps boundary, there's the lag...

"Lag between accelerate and decelerate is also programmable and is there to prolong the life of the entire gear-train. There is no clutch plates or Koosh pads to buffer the extreme change in torque and direction. The lag between direction change pre-tensions the force on the gear teeth so they are not sheared off."

 

[JRP3]

"The low-speed torque is electronically limited, 180 foot-pounds at zero RPMs would spin the tires in loose gravel or wet pavement and be dangerous for many drivers in many driving circumstances."

Oh nooo's

"Lag between accelerate and decelerate is also programmable and is there to prolong the life of the entire gear-train. There is no clutch plates or Koosh pads to buffer the extreme change in torque and direction. The lag between direction change pre-tensions the force on the gear teeth so they are not sheared off."

Anyone hear about tooth shearing on other more powerful EV's? Didn't think so.

 

[DLCarrington]

You can easily chirp or spin tires on a FFE. I do agree that once the car is rolling, past 5mph maybe, it should kick in a little harder. From ~20-80 is very aggressive but there is the low speed window where it should get moving! Other EVs will leave them in the dust! ;-)

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Should have written that it's easy to chirp or spin from standstill.

 

[djp]

"The low-speed torque is electronically limited, 180 foot-pounds at zero RPMs would spin the tires in loose gravel or wet pavement and be dangerous for many drivers in many driving circumstances."

Tesla figured this out in the Roadster with adaptive traction control that varies the torque based on slippage between the front and back wheels. Ford doesn't have any traction control engineers?

"Lag between accelerate and decelerate is also programmable and is there to prolong the life of the entire gear-train. There is no clutch plates or Koosh pads to buffer the extreme change in torque and direction. The lag between direction change pre-tensions the force on the gear teeth so they are not sheared off."

Sounds like they need stronger gear teeth that are designed for EV torque instead of gas engine torque. Still stuck in the ICE age.

 

[ChadS]

I drove an early FFE prototype and asked a senior Ford employee (though not an engineer) why it was so slow off the line - I knew the motor had more power. He said they had "programmed out" the rapid initial acceleration to "make the car more familiar feeling". Of course many automaker employees say many things; it is hard to say for sure what the real reason was. But I can't believe they purposely removed such a huge benefit. I don't buy the safety explanation; they sell faster cars.

 

[Doug_G]

Obviously they dialed it down so it wouldn't show up their performance cars.

Kinda like how IBM dialed the PC back to 4.77 MHz so it wouldn't compete with their minicomputers. Of course they published schematics, and when someone did an analysis and realized it was designed for 8 MHz, the TURBO XT was born. Replace one part, computer almost twice as fast.

 

[hcsharp]

... The electric vacuum pump is louder...

Try driving a Roadster if you want to hear a loud vacuum pump! That said, I think he's right that something may be wrong with yours because ours is almost completely silent.

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Tesla figured this out in the Roadster with adaptive traction control that varies the torque based on slippage between the front and back wheels. Ford doesn't have any traction control engineers?

I always figured the chirping tires on the FFE was left over from a traction control algorithm that was poorly ported from one of their ICE cars. But then my wife drove a rental Ford Focus (ICE) with traction control and it SUCKED compared to the FFE. Despite the occasional "chirping", the FFE traction control is pretty good, but nothing like our Tesla. There are many things that Tesla did right that Ford and Nissan and others never figured out.

I actually think the acceleration is plenty good 0-20 mph. Our dealer said it's stronger than ANY of the gas powered Focus they sell. It's funny because it was parked on their lot next to a 550 HP Mustang. Overall I thought it had better acceleration than the Leaf.

 

[ElSupreme]

Anyone hear about tooth shearing on other more powerful EV's? Didn't think so.

I did it in my regular 85. :redface:

 

[JRP3]

I stand corrected. How did you manage that? Was it a faulty gear set?

 

[ElSupreme]

I stand corrected. How did you manage that? Was it a faulty gear set?

Not really sure. It happened on a full pedal to floor instance, from dead stop (slight roll back?). Ended up getting a new drive unit.

In actuality I am only about 85% sure I sheared off every tooth on a gear. There could have been a gear slipping out of place (axially), or perhaps I sheared off a keyway/bushing holding a gear onto a shaft.

But tell tale sound and result (I'm a mechanical engineer and have sized gearboxes) to shearing off a gear. There was incidental contact of drive gears after the incident, indicating that the gear didn't slip axially. And sound was inconsistent with a gear spinning on a shaft as well. Needless to say I had 0 torque/force transfer to the rear wheels. But no drag on either the motor or drive wheels.

I fully expect it was a manufacturing defect in one of the gears in my differential. But honestly do not know.

EDIT: But I most certainly mechanically damaged a gear in my differential in my regular Model S.

 

[DLCarrington]

I thought of another reason Ford may have mellowed out the FFE on 0-20 ish, torque steer. The FFE is front-wheel drive unlike the i3 (which is very fast even with thinner tires) and Tesla and the thing can get squirrely real fast so if you stomp on it and it was allowed to go all out you might be in the next lane over before you got control of it again!

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Just a note: I have test-driven the FFE (and leased), Tesla, Leaf, and i3. ;-) I would rate them in order of driving preference Tesla, FFE, i3 and Leaf probably tie with some differences. All but the Tesla are in a similar class IMO but the Leaf seems slower than the FFE, I like the FFE styling better than the Leaf, and the FFE batteries are liquid cooled. The i3 is fast but only has four seats and I found the regen way to aggressive. FFE just needs a fast DC plug!

 

[DuncanWatson]

Torque steer is noticable on the FFE already at 0-20. I can understand why it was calmed a bit. It is noticeable how the FFE is calmed as it pauses a bit before it gets really moving. But it still outperforms a large percentage of the ICEs out there in usable acceleration for street driving.

The FFE with fast DC charging with be better than the Leaf. As it stands it is a tradeoff. I love my FFE and just wish it had 200 mile base range and DC charging.

 

[rabar10]

I thought of another reason Ford may have mellowed out the FFE on 0-20 ish, torque steer.

Torque steer is noticable on the FFE already at 0-20. I can understand why it was calmed a bit. It is noticeable how the FFE is calmed as it pauses a bit before it gets really moving. But it still outperforms a large percentage of the ICEs out there in usable acceleration for street driving.

Good point - I've noticed the torque steer in the 10-30 range, and my previous front-wheel-drive ICE car wasn't strong enough to do that to me. Guess it would be stronger at lower speeds if not torque-limited. And yes, the no-drama acceleration is very nice to have in daily driving. It's no Tesla, but it's still better than most

Another FFE observation -- while the traction control (electronic torque limiting) works very well on snow and ice, it leaves something to be desired on wet pavement and other moderate-traction situations -- allows too much slip.

 

[RiverBrick]

"The low-speed torque is electronically limited, 180 foot-pounds at zero RPMs would spin the tires in loose gravel or wet pavement and be dangerous for many drivers in many driving circumstances."

imho, Ford limits the torque to boost EPA range figures. The MY13+ LEAFs have the same motor as the earlier editions, but less torque from zero to around thirty. 187 ft-lb instead of 207. This appears to be one of the factors helping the MY13+ LEAF go 15% farther (84 miles versus 73 miles) according to the EPA.

(mod note - replies were moved to the Nissan Leaf thread)

 

[ElSupreme]

Other contributing factors may be the reduced torque off the line, less of the 24kWh being blocked from use, and gearing changed to game the EPA tests where most of the emphasis is on city driving.

Maximum acceleration doesn't factor into EPA testing. Even if you had 10x torque at 0rpm you still accelerate on the exact same schedule.

So even if they did do this to help consumption in the real world (doubtful how efficient electric motors actually are) , it wouldn't affect EPA ranges at all.

Detailed Test Information

Driving the FFE, I can tell you the limited torque is there for tire life, and torque steer. And for the sake of the ST.

 

[RiverBrick]

Maximum acceleration doesn't factor into EPA testing. Even if you had 10x torque at 0rpm you still accelerate on the exact same schedule.

So even if they did do this to help consumption in the real world (doubtful how efficient electric motors actually are) , it wouldn't affect EPA ranges at all.

Driving the FFE, I can tell you the limited torque is there for tire life, and torque steer. And for the sake of the ST.

That makes sense, I concede that Ford wasn't looking at EPA tests when deciding to limit torque.

 

[rabar10]

From a thread in the Investor section:

yeah. meanwhile they can't even sell any of their Ford Focus Electric's ...."only about 4,000 units of the EV have sold since the sales debut in December 2011." Ford Focus Electric 2015 Gets Big Price Cut -- Down To $29,995 From $35,995 | CleanTechnica

Now the question is: will a lower price, on its own, attract significant sales? As mentioned in the other thread, Ford does zero marketing for the Focus Electric. I didn't know the thing existed until a few months prior to leasing It, but had known about LEAF, a Volt, etc. for years. Also, with the Model 3 not too far in the distant future, will some potential EV buyers hold off on all other options, Ford included?