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Ford: "We can build a car like Model S"

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I don't think they even have the technical skills to build an EV. They have lots of ICE skills but are clueless about EVs. They would need to start a skunkworks project from scratch to build a real EV.
I think they do -- I know several of their engineers, and they are quite talented. I think their problems lie more with their corporate culture. As an example, in 2007 at a neighborhood potluck, after telling her I had just bought a Prius, a Ford engineer explained to me how they had carefully analyzed hybrids and determined that they were pointless because every use case could be better met with an existing vehicle, and they had decided not to pursue them. I explained to her that that may be correct, but customers were demanding them, and Ford could stand to make money satisfying that demand. I was met with a puzzled deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by her getting very interested in her plate of food. :frown:
 
I explained to her that that may be correct, but customers were demanding them, and Ford could stand to make money satisfying that demand. I was met with a puzzled deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by her getting very interested in her plate of food. :frown:[/QUOTE]

Great story. Thank you!
 
I think they do -- I know several of their engineers, and they are quite talented. I think their problems lie more with their corporate culture. As an example, in 2007 at a neighborhood potluck, after telling her I had just bought a Prius, a Ford engineer explained to me how they had carefully analyzed hybrids and determined that they were pointless because every use case could be better met with an existing vehicle, and they had decided not to pursue them. I explained to her that that may be correct, but customers were demanding them, and Ford could stand to make money satisfying that demand. I was met with a puzzled deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by her getting very interested in her plate of food. :frown:

Thanks for that story. Are you certain of the timing? The Escape Hybrid went on sale in 2005, and the first Fusion Hybrid in 2009. Maybe those were just "compliance cars?" Though I'm pretty certain the current Fusion and C-Max hybrids are available nationwide.
 
Thanks for that story. Are you certain of the timing? The Escape Hybrid went on sale in 2005, and the first Fusion Hybrid in 2009. Maybe those were just "compliance cars?" Though I'm pretty certain the current Fusion and C-Max hybrids are available nationwide.
I'm sure that's the year since my Prius is a 2007. I don't recall seeing the Escape Hybrid in Michigan (a non-CARB state), so it may have been a compliance vehicle (heck, it was almost impossible to get a Prius in MI much before 2007!). She may have just been speaking for her group...
 
The Ford GT shows what Ford is capable of when they put their minds to it. Granted, the GT was based on traditional technologies, but the drive train and suspension are pretty impressive for a company that doesn't produce high-end automobiles.

I have to wonder, though, when Ford's engineers "took apart" their Model S, did they have any inkling of the central role software plays in this vehicle?
 
I think it's true that no one should ever be counted out, but Apple was an exceptional case.

Apple had Steve Jobs, a charismatic (some say crazy and awful) visionary who was willing to push the envelope. He brought NeXT to Apple at a time when Apple's OS development was floundering. He led innovation in digital music, electronics retail, mobile phones, and tablets.

Apple had to re-boot from almost nothing at a point when established PC makers and Microsoft dominated the computing world. Ford has generally done well in the past few years. It's an establishment company and does not have a Jobs-like leader or legions of diehard fans willing to camp out or wait extraordinarily long times for its products. I wouldn't discount Ford entirely, but they are no Apple.

i completely agree with what you have written. If there is any American auto company that can turn the tide, it is Ford. And I thank Alan Mullally for that. He had the vision and the fire. Much harder for him to turn the tide than Steve because he wasn't the founder. But what he has done is truly remarkable (with no bailout). I do have high hopes for Ford and believe in them (today). With Alan leaving, I am saddened. I hope that Wm C Ford can keep that alive.
 
i completely agree with what you have written. If there is any American auto company that can turn the tide, it is Ford. And I thank Alan Mullally for that. He had the vision and the fire. Much harder for him to turn the tide than Steve because he wasn't the founder. But what he has done is truly remarkable (with no bailout). I do have high hopes for Ford and believe in them (today). With Alan leaving, I am saddened. I hope that Wm C Ford can keep that alive.

I commend Ford for not needing to be bailed out. however, such a large company will never be nimble enough to keep up with such a successful disruptor like Tesla. Ford is in big trouble, but I see GM going down first while Ford downsizes itself over time.
 
Sorry to be pedantic, but terminology is important. Tesla does manufacture the batteries. What they don't manufacture is the cells that go into the battery.

Tesla manufactures the battery modules, and of course the battery pack. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells as you note. However we talk about it, the pack is not a "battery", it is a package (pack) of batteries.

I don't care who's right, but I wasn't wrong. ;-)
 
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I commend Ford for not needing to be bailed out. however, such a large company will never be nimble enough to keep up with such a successful disruptor like Tesla. Ford is in big trouble, but I see GM going down first while Ford downsizes itself over time.

Ford would have gone bankrupt if not for their participation in the same DOT loan program that Tesla paid back (Ford is still making payments). Their hybrid development program saved them.

Sadly for GM, they didn't use those available loans to continue to evolve the EV-1. I recall reading an article where Elon said he got involved with Tesla after seeing GM smash their EV-1 fleet. It ticked him off enough to invest in Tesla Motors. The rest is automotive history.
 
I am sure Ford can build something like a Mercedes S-550 plug-in or Ferrari LaFerrari. So can the Chinese OEMs.


But the question is how close,how many, and at what price.

Did you say LaFerrari! Got a chance to see a 2 million $ hybrid up close yesterday!!

IMG_0752.jpg
 
Did you say LaFerrari! Got a chance to see a 2 million $ hybrid up close yesterday!!

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Whoa

I just had to repost the picture, one is not enough for that beauty

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I commend Ford for not needing to be bailed out. however, such a large company will never be nimble enough to keep up with such a successful disruptor like Tesla. Ford is in big trouble, but I see GM going down first while Ford downsizes itself over time.

Business life cycle in play here. Tesla is growing, so one day it will have a grip on the market but it will also be as slow as Ford. I wonder what kind of future business will disrupt Tesla.

Until that future happens, we can make lots of money on Tesla disruption :smile:

I am so pleased to see that other car makers are chasing Tesla, not the other way around. Tesla is setting the standard that others are trying to reach
 
Fixed that for you...

Ford does not produce the batteries, battery pack, motor, inverter or other parts of the Focus EV.
In contrast, Tesla manufacturers everything but the batteries from the list above.

Ford has yet to show they are anywhere near the equal of Tesla on that front.
Outsourcing the prime cost drivers of an EV like Ford does is not a recipe for long term success.

No Ford does not produce the cells LG Chem does that (and Tesla buys Panasonic Cells). They do produce the battery (in cooperation with LG Chem) itself. They do purchase the Motor/Inverter but those are not very hard to make yourself. There isn't really a dark art of electric motor production, or VFD design. In my industry electric motors are basically commodities.

Have you driven a FFE? I drive one pretty much every day. There are plenty of things that Ford has done better than Tesla. Their energy display is much more user friendly (Tesla's static Wh/mi on the display being the lone exception). And LOTS of the actual CAR are so much better than the Tesla. And considering the FFE is $30k and the Model S is $80k Tesla isn't quite there yet.


Now I think Tesla can get the car stuff correct faster than most of the other auto manufacturers get their EV drives as refined. But once you get a 'good enough' EV drive. The car bits become the deciding factor in a car purchase. If Ford can ease the torque steer, and wheel spin at low speeds. Their EV drive will be at the 'good enough' stage.
 
One other thing to consider. I think that the big automakers are reluctant to make a good, attractive EV. If they have a good design it will go to a high-volume ICE model instead. They will take designs out of the dustbin, like boxy, dorky, or even unpractically cool like the BWM i8. A design like the Model S, a good compromise of aesthetics and function would never go to an EV.
 
Electric motors may be commodities if you're running a factory. However, if you're building electric cars, there is a lot of real engineering necessary. An interesting part of the Elon Musk interview at the MIT event a few days ago... A question was asked about how Tesla was able to get such a high power to weight ratio which is much higher than standard industrial motors. Musk went into a rather detailed answer, part of which was how they tackled the problem of keeping the motor from overheating by using coaxial cooling of the rotor.
Your detailing of the problems with the Ford (torque steer, and wheel spin at low speeds) are a few other problems that take real EV engineers, not ICE car engineers. Ford is an ICE car company and all the best engineering and marketing will go into ICE cars. EVs from Ford may get to the point of "good enough" but will never excel. (Something about old dogs and new tricks.)
 
Electric motors may be commodities if you're running a factory. However, if you're building electric cars, there is a lot of real engineering necessary. An interesting part of the Elon Musk interview at the MIT event a few days ago... A question was asked about how Tesla was able to get such a high power to weight ratio which is much higher than standard industrial motors. Musk went into a rather detailed answer, part of which was how they tackled the problem of keeping the motor from overheating by using coaxial cooling of the rotor.
Your detailing of the problems with the Ford (torque steer, and wheel spin at low speeds) are a few other problems that take real EV engineers, not ICE car engineers. Ford is an ICE car company and all the best engineering and marketing will go into ICE cars. EVs from Ford may get to the point of "good enough" but will never excel. (Something about old dogs and new tricks.)

Uh ... Torque steer is a power transmission problem, not a power generation problem. Eliminated by going to RWD, or most likely buiding a platform designed to take a EV drive system. It really has nothing to do with the electric motor. And Tesla hasn't solved this problem either, as RWD eliminates torque steer.

And wheelspin at low speeds is partly due to weight balance, the front differential, and crap OEM tries. All of which have no bearing on the drive unit. Sure some slight traction control, and better low speed torque mapping could help, but just as much if not more is really car engineering. Again Tesla isn't fighting this battle either due to choosing RWD.

As far as 'good enough' and not excelling Ford has a better backup camera. Better energy displays, and driver information. Much better navigation setup, much better general ergonomics, much better headlamps, better brights, more comfortable seats, higher quality floor mats, much better interior lighting, a place to put sunglasses, much better fan control on auto climate, quieter AC compressor, much better windshield washer nozzles, and a rear parcel shelf that gets lifted with the tailgate.

It's easy to say Tesla used some special engineering to get a more power dense electric motor, than an industrial motor. But industrial motors don't need to be small. If I have a pump that needs a 50hp motor, the pump itself is going to be of such a size that motor size is not really important. Also industrial motors are designed to spin much slower than ones in automobile applications (save the Chevy Spark EV) which limit their high HP ratings (torque times speed is HP). So they aren't really directly comparable. And to imply that an established automaker will have a hard time water cooling something is laughable. An ICE is a much harder thing to temperature control.
 
As far as 'good enough' and not excelling Ford has a better backup camera. Better energy displays, and driver information. Much better navigation setup, much better general ergonomics, much better headlamps, better brights, more comfortable seats, higher quality floor mats, much better interior lighting, a place to put sunglasses, much better fan control on auto climate, quieter AC compressor, much better windshield washer nozzles, and a rear parcel shelf that gets lifted with the tailgate.

The information displays, camera interface, and navigation can be improved over time with OTA firmware updates.

My biggest complaint with the Model S was the lack of interior conveniences and odd ergonomics (specifically the weird control stalk placement). Tesla addressed the control stalk recently. Given that Model X is said to be designed to be family friendly, I think it's likely that Tesla will have addressed the interior issues by next year. If Tesla can make the X interior as functional or better than the Honda CR-V, I think they'll have gotten it right.

No doubt that Tesla lagged in these aspects with Model S, but their rate of evolution is very rapid. I'm not sure the bigger companies can catch up as quickly on the areas where Tesla is ahead.
 
As far as 'good enough' and not excelling Ford has a better backup camera. Better energy displays, and driver information. Much better navigation setup, much better general ergonomics, much better headlamps, better brights, more comfortable seats, higher quality floor mats, much better interior lighting, a place to put sunglasses, much better fan control on auto climate, quieter AC compressor, much better windshield washer nozzles, and a rear parcel shelf that gets lifted with the tailgate.

As for the hardware, Tesla will quickly catch up (as they did with the driver assist stuff). As for the stuff that software does (half your list?) , Tesla will give improvements to every Tesla owner ever. When the 2016/7/8 FFEs come out with much better software, will you get it? I drive a Leaf. It is an excellent car and the around view camera is fantastic but the only software updates I get (at the dealer, not OTA) are bug fixes. I'm assuming Ford is the same. This is where Tesla will shine. If you forget for a minute that the Model S is electric and look at the rest of the advantages - OTA software updates, service that comes to you nationwide, supercharging etc., you get at something that nobody can compete with. Ford might claim to have the expertise to make a car like the Model S, but by the time they ever get around to making one, what will Tesla be making then?
 
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Ford is making really good cars and trucks right now. They could build a car like the Model S. It seems they just don't want to. I really like Ford, but since I am committed to going EV, Tesla wins because Ford didn't even enter the competition.

Have you checked out the trunk in a plug-in Fusion? That right there is proof they lack any form of commitment to EVs or even partial EVs.