Ford: "We can build a car like Model S"

[The Blue Owl]

Ford is making really good cars and trucks right now. They could build a car like the Model S. It seems they just don't want to.

I know, right? I mean, they could certainly build a car safer than any other, with better acceleration than limited edition two-seaters costing >500k, with a spacious cabin and more luggage space than the largest sedan, with best-in-class handling, that travels in complete silence for more than 400km on a single charge, that can drive itself and park itself, whose 99% of owners say they are very satisfied, and it surely could build it to order, for pre-paying customers, and thus carry no unsold inventory, and generate more positive buzz than all the ads that Ford's money can buy, all at a 30% gross margin.

They could do all that, they just don't want to.

 

[mspohr]

The FWD illustrates the problem with Ford. The ICE age engineers just took an existing ICE platform and bolted on an electric motor without consideration for handling or performance. They stuck the batteries in the trunk (taking up a lot of the trunk space). Rookie ICE age engineer mistakes. Not EV engineers. This isn't even "good enough". It is pathetic.
You like some of the display in the Ford which is good because you're never going to get an update.

 

[RiverBrick]

Last night CARB's meeting was about the intermediate sized OEMs.

Like Subaru,Mazda,Mitsubishi,Jaguar Land Rover, Mercedes,BMW etc

At least Mitsu has the 30 AER Outlander PHEV and Mercedes has the B-Class, BMW the i3, Volvo the XC90

The ones that are really screwed are Subaru,Mazda, and Jaguar Land Rover.

I think Subaru is small enough to escape sanctions by only offering an 11-mile PHEV. They'll just whine and slap an 8-kWh battery on one of their vehicles.

I'm surprised Mitsu is big enough in California to be considered intermediate.

 

[scaesare]

Well Ford has spent close to zero marketing the Focus Electric. I have a few friends with LEAFs and they had no idea that Ford sold an electric vehicle. I think Ford only wants to sell a couple hundred every month, keep volume low until they are sure their EV is solid.

As some anecdotal evidence of this: I visited my neighbor to take a look at their solar system installation. turns out they have a Focus Electric.

They found it on the back of a lot by accident. The salesdroid tried to talk them out of it. There was zero effort to either promote or sell it. Actually less than zero, as they tried to talk them out of it. They bought it anyway, and rarely have ever seen another.

I had no idea they existed before seeing it in their garage. If Ford is trying to sell them, they are doing a great job hiding the fact...

 

[mrdoubleb]

I know, right? I mean, they could certainly build a car safer than any other, with better acceleration than limited edition two-seaters costing >500k, with a spacious cabin and more luggage space than the largest sedan, with best-in-class handling, that travels in complete silence for more than 400km on a single charge, that can drive itself and park itself, whose 99% of owners say they are very satisfied, and it surely could build it to order, for pre-paying customers, and thus carry no unsold inventory, and generate more positive buzz than all the ads that Ford's money can buy, all at a 30% gross margin.

They could do all that, they just don't want to.

Yeah... your post summs up what I was thinking the moment i read the headline. Well put. :biggrin:

 

[Krugerrand]

As far as 'good enough' and not excelling Ford has a better backup camera. Better energy displays, and driver information. Much better navigation setup, much better general ergonomics, much better headlamps, better brights, more comfortable seats, higher quality floor mats, much better interior lighting, a place to put sunglasses, much better fan control on auto climate, quieter AC compressor, much better windshield washer nozzles, and a rear parcel shelf that gets lifted with the tailgate.

None of those things ever got me to buy a Ford. Ever. *shrug*

 

[mspohr]

Me neither... but I might switch for the better windshield washer nozzles (or the floor mats) :tongue:

 

[ElSupreme]

The FWD illustrates the problem with Ford. The ICE age engineers just took an existing ICE platform and bolted on an electric motor without consideration for handling or performance. They stuck the batteries in the trunk (taking up a lot of the trunk space). Rookie ICE age engineer mistakes. Not EV engineers. This isn't even "good enough". It is pathetic.
You like some of the display in the Ford which is good because you're never going to get an update.

Uh packaging is the last thing you do. Why blow a whole bunch of money building a new platform when you can bolt on your first generation EV drive train? Come on. Tesla HAD to build a new platform. Ford will accommodate (if they are furthering the EV market) into new platforms as they revamp them. Ford doesn't have a RWD platform to put an EV into (except the F-150 and Mustang). I am saying their first generation EV is quite good. And once they build a 2nd generation one, it should be 'good enough' to compete on other things. Like working sun visors, cupholders, and interior lights.

None of those things ever got me to buy a Ford. Ever. *shrug*

But a lot of people do buy Fords. Because of these things. Hell I bought a Ford because they had these things that Nissan DIDN'T! This is WHY PEOPLE BUY CARS!

Me neither... but I might switch for the better windshield washer nozzles (or the floor mats) :tongue:

I use washers almost every time I drive a car. Having mediocre ones is something that I notice EVERY DAY. It really makes a difference on how much I like a car. Sure you don't test these things when you purchase a car, but you remember about them and look at other manufacturers if they bug you every day, or you stick with the manufacturer because you think "I love the washers" every day. It makes a difference when you talk about loyalty.

If you were looking at two cars. One with crap seats, mediocre headlights, near worthless sun visors, no grab handles. The other with excellent headlamps, grab handles, wonderful interior light, and sun visors with lighted mirrors. They cost about the same, drove about the same. You would care which one did better.

Everyone here seems to think that Tesla can learn the car stuff, but the other car manufacturers can't learn the EV stuff. You are all wrong. Sure Tesla has very very good EV stuff. And I doubt that they will be exceeded for a very very long time. But IF another manufacturer (I personally thing Nissan or Ford) really commits to a 2nd generation EV. They will be able to compete with Tesla. It is a good thing. Whether any of the old car manufacturers WILL truly commit to producing an good EV is something all together different.


And seriously the floor mats in the Tesla (even the much improved 3rd generation) are terrible POSs. How can a $30k car be SO much better in some of these things!

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Everyone here seems to think that Tesla can learn the car stuff, but the other car manufacturers can't learn the EV stuff. You are all wrong. Sure Tesla has very very good EV stuff. And I doubt that they will be exceeded for a very very long time. But IF another manufacturer (I personally thing Nissan or Ford) really commits to a 2nd generation EV. They will be able to compete with Tesla. It is a good thing. Whether any of the old car manufacturers WILL truly commit to producing an good EV is something all together different.

I have no doubt that Ford, or Nissan, or Honda could build an excellent EV. It's not that they can't learn. It's that their path to catch up is much more difficulty than Tesla's path to catch up.

Tesla needs only some minor design work to add storage. Better floor mats are trivial to implement.

For a company like Honda, they would need to secure a large number of batteries, plan for future battery production, and match Tesla's Supercharger network. Even if they started today, it would be years before the vehicle, the batteries, and the network became ready. Porche and Mercedes have announced plans to compete with Model S… in 2018 at earliest. That's just for the car.

 

[Krugerrand]

But a lot of people do buy Fords. Because of these things. Hell I bought a Ford because they had these things that Nissan DIDN'T! This is WHY PEOPLE BUY CARS!

Yes, lots of people buy Fords. Lots of people do not. You're surmising that because those things are important to you, they must also be important to all (most? many?) other car buyers. I don't believe that's accurate. Most of your list is incidentals.

If you were looking at two cars. One with crap seats, mediocre headlights, near worthless sun visors, no grab handles. The other with excellent headlamps, grab handles, wonderful interior light, and sun visors with lighted mirrors. They cost about the same, drove about the same. You would care which one did better.

No other car drives like the Model S, so... But still there are a lot of other factors that would need to be exactly the same before it came down to grab handles and lighted vanity mirrors. Cost, service and warranty right off the top. Then there's the whole free long distance fuel thing.

I understand you're a discriminating buyer. Hopefully one day Tesla can meet your needs as well as Ford does.

 

[yesla]

didnt tesla release the patents? why cant they start off making a tesla clone? because their dealers wont sell them. and whatever forces that made GM crush all of their EV-1.... the big boys are trapped. the germans, however... they got the $$ to do something. and have partnered up with Tesla long enough to do something... at the end of the day, ICE is not going away completely for a very very long time. Even if EV sales reach 50% of all auto sales globally, ICE can still survive... on the budget market.... until governments impose higher "gas taxes" that would make the tipping point of ICE extinction... but all of those conditions are just so... perfect... I imagine EV, as good as they are, will still be selling below 50% well into my old age unless people wake up and take control away from the revolving door in governments.

 

[SebastianR]

Two reflections on how times are changing: I like how the consensus in this forum is that of course Ford could build a car like the Model S - I heard that in other places, too. I think it shows that generally, we move the discussion from "it can't be done" to "it can be done, but I don't feel like it because..."

Secondly, I feel the tide may - slowly - be changing with traditional car makers, too: The (unwarranted) comment by the Ford CEO is one example. When I talked to an Audi dealer two days ago I heard another: he urged me to not buy a Tesla until I had a test drive in one of the eTrons which he said will come in March... Now of course it is silly to compare the A3 eTron to a Model S but it shows that some dealers are starting to feel the pinch. And that's great!

 

[30seconds]

I know, right? I mean, they could certainly build a car safer than any other, with better acceleration than limited edition two-seaters costing >500k, with a spacious cabin and more luggage space than the largest sedan, with best-in-class handling, that travels in complete silence for more than 400km on a single charge, that can drive itself and park itself, whose 99% of owners say they are very satisfied, and it surely could build it to order, for pre-paying customers, and thus carry no unsold inventory, and generate more positive buzz than all the ads that Ford's money can buy, all at a 30% gross margin.

They could do all that, they just don't want to.

FR - you get my vote for favorite all-time post to TMC

 

[WarpedOne]

This "we can build a car like Model S" is very much similar to me saying "I can build a rocket that will go to the moon".
"Can" is a very stretchable word.

 

[Auzie]

on cc today in response to question, ford has bought a model s and driven it. they took it apart and put it back together and drove it again. they are confident that they can build it. thought this was funny. issue isnt can you build it but if you can design and engineer one. their stating that it drove again seemed funny. a successful experiment in model kit building

Then the question is: If they think they can build it, what is stopping Ford in building a car that can compete with model S in ev space?

I really like and enjoy reading about Tesla car becoming something of aspiration for other car makers. Tesla has lifted the bar for all car makers, they are all looking up to Tesla.

Well done Tesla team, great achievement to position your brand as an inspiration to others, keep them coming!

 

[physicsfita]

Interestingly, it was reported that Ford is the lone manufacturer pushing to change the combo plug spec to 150 kW. At the very least, they're keeping an eye on the competition:

Ford Can Design Tesla-Like Electric Car, CEO Says; Does Higher-Power Charging Push Mean It May?

 

[ElSupreme]

I have no doubt that Ford, or Nissan, or Honda could build an excellent EV. It's not that they can't learn. It's that their path to catch up is much more difficulty than Tesla's path to catch up.

I'm not so sure on that. I think Tesla will catch up sooner than Ford or Nissan will, but they only have one hard thing to solve. Tesla has LOTS of easy things to solve. In my experience one hard thing more often than not is easier to fix than lots of easy things.

Tesla needs only some minor design work to add storage. Better floor mats are trivial to implement.

This is my point exactly. This is so easy to do. But over 2 year producing these things, and on their 3rd version and the Ford ones are SO much better. And the ones they are giving out are still pretty bad. Not to mention that Tesla has another $50k to work with. Sure Tesla is improving the seats. But they still are not even close to Ford or VW seats on their cheap vehicles.

Yes, lots of people buy Fords. Lots of people do not. You're surmising that because those things are important to you, they must also be important to all (most? many?) other car buyers. I don't believe that's accurate. Most of your list is incidentals.

Uh being able to see inside a car at night is important to almost everybody. Having a sun visor that functions for people shorter than 5'8" is important to over half the population of the US. Having nicer everything else are important to pretty much everybody. I'm not saying that Ford does all these things better. But each car does some things better than other cars. And those 'better' things are what sell that car. The Model S has a better drive system than anything else out there. It has better range than any other EV out there. Those two items are why I bought a Model S. Those two things are why I love my Model S.

No other car drives like the Model S, so... But still there are a lot of other factors that would need to be exactly the same before it came down to grab handles and lighted vanity mirrors. Cost, service and warranty right off the top. Then there's the whole free long distance fuel thing.

I understand you're a discriminating buyer. Hopefully one day Tesla can meet your needs as well as Ford does.

Tesla has met my needs. And done a better job than Ford. But it also cost me an extra $60k. And it could have been so much better. I thought Tesla was head and shoulders better than EVERYONE else out there when it came to EVs. I didn't thing anyone else was close. Even after I had test driven a Focus Electric I thought it was so far away. But driving one every day. Ford is closer than most people here think. Nothing is going to compete with the Model S for a long time. But I expect that there will be at least two large auto manufacturers competing hard with the Model 3. I think that Ford will be one of them. I hope that VW is another, because they are the company that makes cars the way I like. I think that BMW will put out something, but only compete with the higher end of the Model 3 segment. And I love Tesla and will probably buy a Model 3 over the other manufacturer's offerings. But if the other guys make a 90% as good drive system, but 200% better interiors for the same price. I might switch.

If Ford really committed they could have a HVDC charge network rolled out. And probably overtake Tesla within a year. See they already have a large network of buildings, that generally have large power feeds. And are distributed over the entire US. Sure they don't own these facilities. But they have a lot of pull with them. This clears up almost all the red tape that Tesla has to deal with. With the next generation platforms they could design the vehicles to accommodate EV drive trains, and batteries without the compromise shown in the existing FFE.

 

[uselesslogin]

Interestingly, it was reported that Ford is the lone manufacturer pushing to change the combo plug spec to 150 kW. At the very least, they're keeping an eye on the competition:

Ford Can Design Tesla-Like Electric Car, CEO Says; Does Higher-Power Charging Push Mean It May?

I hadn't read the CC transcript. This article has more of that transcript. I like this quote.

"And part of that is the growth we’re going to see in our Silicon Valley operations which is going to be growing significantly so that we can attract that talent to our company and compliment the already strong talent we have in those areas."

Considering they are the only ones asking for 150kw it means they are the only ones that get it. If other engineers are "confused" by this then they are still in a gas powered mindset. Anyway I really look forward to the first decent competition whoever it is.

 

[dalalsid]

I'm not so sure on that. I think Tesla will catch up sooner than Ford or Nissan will, but they only have one hard thing to solve. Tesla has LOTS of easy things to solve. In my experience one hard thing more often than not is easier to fix than lots of easy things.

If Ford really committed they could have a HVDC charge network rolled out. And probably overtake Tesla within a year. See they already have a large network of buildings, that generally have large power feeds. And are distributed over the entire US. Sure they don't own these facilities. But they have a lot of pull with them. This clears up almost all the red tape that Tesla has to deal with. With the next generation platforms they could design the vehicles to accommodate EV drive trains, and batteries without the compromise shown in the existing FFE.

The above is wishful thinking. There are many very hard problems, not just one, including non-technical ones which Ford (or anyone else) cannot solve in one year:
1. Batteries: There is no way Ford (or any other company including LG) can get one or more Gigafactories up and running any faster than Tesla. So competing with the Model 3/S or any other Tesla model with an EV is unlikely in one year. By 2020 maybe. Limited edition CA only cars dont count.
2. Dealers: Dealers make almost no money selling new cars. Used cars and service is where their profits are. So they have no incentive to sell an EV. Ford can't even get all their dealers to sell/service the FFE. That is not going to change.
3. Their Existing ICE Cars: Lets say Ford makes a Ford Fusion Electric and prices it 5k more than the Ford Fusion Hybrid at $35k (you know to be competitive with the Model 3). That will effectively kill the Ford Fusion Energi at the same price. So Ford must price it at $40k or more.
4. Charging Network: As for Charging even if Ford managed to put a supercharger equivalent at every Ford dealer nationwide (more wishful thinking), that still wouldn't solve the long distance travel because somebody needs to pay to put those chargers in the middle of nowhere.

If Ford really does have EV expertise why does the battery of the FFE occupy almost the entire freaking trunk? Couldn't they figure out any other shape/placement for the battery? How are these guys going to compete with the Model 3 with a trunk/frunk/supercharging/no dealers/ranger service/built to spec car/longer range (I'm pretty certain there will be two range options with the Model 3)?

I really hope Nissan/GM/Ford compete with the Model 3. But I don't think they can or will. I have a feeling that fingers are crossed everywhere that the Model 3 is delayed/impossible for Tesla to make at that price.

 

[Krugerrand]

Then the question is: If they think they can build it, what is stopping Ford in building a car that can compete with model S in ev space?

Shouldn't the Ford quote be: 'We can build a 'better' car than the Model S'? It's too late to clone a Model S. They better be looking at making the next generation, otherwise, what's the point. There has to be something more compelling in a Ford clone for people to buy it over the Model S. Oh, that's right...better windshield washer nozzles. :biggrin: (j/k El!)

- - - Updated - - -

And done a better job than Ford. But it also cost me an extra $60k. And it could have been so much better.

It wouldn't have mattered who made the Model S, it was going to cost 60K more. Actually, 60k was probably a bargain. Yes, yes! Of course Model S could have been better. Indeed it IS better now than when it was released two years ago. Not sure anyone would argue that point. Even Elon Musk has said as much. He also said why they released, even though they considered it unfinished.