Ford Will Unveil Chevrolet Bolt Competitor This Year

[JST]

This part of that article stunned me, quote:
"It’s unfortunate that Ford doesn’t pair performance with electrification. And there’s no way Ford can present a valid argument suggesting the performance and electrification don’t go hand in hand. Ask Porsche, or McLaren. Or BMW. Performance these days requires electrification, so hopefully Ford will grasp onto this before it’s too late."
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Shocking that the writer did not mention the Tesla Model S P85D.

I think the author was referring to hybrid vehicles, specifically.

That article is silly, by the way. It takes quotes from Raj Nair made at the NAIAS two months ago in the context of talking about the Ford GT and attempts to use them to debunk the current rumor of a Bolt competitor, which is pretty weak tea. Obviously Nair doesn't think that at the present time a $400,000 supercar like the GT needs electrification, but trying to make that have anything to do with a quotidian Bolt competitor is several steps too far.

Bill Ford has been vocal about the need to address environmental issues. Whether that translates into something like a 200 mile EV remains to be seen, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that because Ford is building fast ICE cars it won't also build EVs.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Whether that translates into something like a 200 mile EV remains to be seen, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that because Ford is building fast ICE cars it won't also build EVs.

I agree. GM makes the non-hybrid Corvette ZR1, but that doesn't stop them from building the Bolt.

 

[bluenation]

Surely you realize the factually incorrect nature of that statement. You are exaggerating for effect, which does not reflect well on your position that Tesla is behind schedule on successor models to the S (which is obviously true, no need to distort reality).

his statement is a fact: a hole in the ground shows progress for the GF. it does not factually show progress on a 35k USD EV. this, in addition to elon's saying that GF is not just about the 3, an unknown portion will go towards batt storage industry.

A fake Bolt is out there on display, which doesn't work and probably bears no resemblance to the actual product. That is no indication whatsoever of progress on the vehicle. Many concept cars are complete vaporware and never make it to production. Those that do rarely look anything like the concept car. Volt, for example.

thats a very strong statement. proof?

I'm more impressed by engineering. No evidence of any has been shown. I'm even more impressed by actual working vehicles.

Tesla doesn't need to do that, they have thousands of real EVs on the street every day.

and zero 35k USD EV.

this thread is regarding a Bolt competitor.

(all this said, my money is on tesla delivering the best. Even if, as of now, there's zero proof a 3 will outperform a Bolt in specs - and anyone claiming that they know it will, is talking out of their u know what )

 

[rabar10]

this thread is regarding a Bolt competitor.

Indeed.

Respectfully, discussions on whether Model 3 is vaporware, whether a hole in the ground signifies progress, why Model X has been delayed, etc. belong in one or more different threads.

I was going to try to separate that stuff out from this one, but it's so intertwined at this point it would cause more of a mess than it would solve IMO.

The original article seems to be almost entirely speculation, and with the official word from Ford being that it's not accurate, the questions become:
- should Ford try to make an affordable 200-mile-range EV? (Guessing most here would say yes..)
- can Ford make one? (affordable, long-range EV) - battery supplies, etc.
- when would Ford officially announce a concept?
- when would they be able to actually deliver on it?

 

[anticitizen13.7]

- should Ford try to make an affordable 200-mile-range EV? (Guessing most here would say yes..)
- can Ford make one? (affordable, long-range EV) - battery supplies, etc.
- when would Ford officially announce a concept?
- when would they be able to actually deliver on it?

The only question I have the ability to answer is the first question, and my answer is yes (I was disappointed that the rumors have been outright denied by Ford).

Ford makes mainstream cars with decent driving dynamics, thanks in part to its former ownership of Mazda. I think they could do a decent job if they made the effort.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The original article seems to be almost entirely speculation, and with the official word from Ford being that it's not accurate, the questions become:
- should Ford try to make an affordable 200-mile-range EV? (Guessing most here would say yes..)
- can Ford make one? (affordable, long-range EV) - battery supplies, etc.
- when would Ford officially announce a concept?
- when would they be able to actually deliver on it?

I think the answer to the first two questions is yes. But one question is missing:

- Does Ford have the motivation required to make an affordable 200-mile-range EV?

And nothing I've seen from Ford tells me yes.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

One can argue that Tesla has much more motivation to make the Model 3 an unqualified success than GM does to make the Bolt successful. Tesla has gambled most of its future on the success of Model 3. And hey, should Model 3 be a total disaster there's always the home battery thing...

 

[Larry Chanin]

No it is not.

Definition.

In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with development details lacking. Usage of the word has broadened to products such as automobiles. At times, vendors are criticized for intentionally producing vaporware in order to keep customers from switching to competitive products that offer more features.

Hi Rob,

You make an excellent point.

And to follow that point, why isn't Tesla building a mass market car with 200+ miles of range right now?

The answer is simple, there isn't enough global battery capacity to support a true mass market EV (over 100,000 per year) with that size battery.

So if GM and Ford are serious about producing a mass market EV with over 200 miles of range, where do they plan to get their batteries? Tesla? :wink:

If there is no news about other non-Tesla "Gigafactories" on the horizon, how can we conclude anything other that these are compliance-like marketing moves to pretend that they are still in the game?

Producing a concept car without the demonstrated battery capacity means very little if the real objective is to go mass market.

Larry

 

[Jeff N]

The answer is simple, there isn't enough global battery capacity to support a true mass market EV (over 100,000 per year) with that size battery.

So if GM and Ford are serious about producing a mass market EV with over 200 miles of range, where do they plan to get their batteries? Tesla? :wink:

If there is no news about other non-Tesla "Gigafactories" on the horizon, how can we conclude anything other that these are compliance-like marketing moves to pretend that they are still in the game?

Producing a concept car without the demonstrated battery capacity means very little if the real objective is to go mass market.

GM is getting their cells from the LG Chem factory in Michigan. That factory was designed to initially produce enough cells for up to 50,000 Volts a year each having 288 pouch cells. The factory was designed so it could be rapidly expanded to produce enough cells for 200,000 Volts. The new Volt (and the Spark EV, which is supplied by the same factory) now uses 192 cells per car which might imply that the plant could now be expanded to supply up to 300,000 Volts per year ((288/192) * 200,000). Let's say it takes about 3x the cells in the Volt to make a 55-60 kwh pack (2016 Volt has 192 cells for 18.4 kwh so 3x would be 55.2 kwh). That implies that the existing LG Chem plant could be relatively rapidly expanded to support up to 100,000 200-mile cars or maybe 85,000 plus 45,000 Volts. That's not 500,000 cars a year like the GF at full capacity in 2020 but it's still plenty of cars. There are very few passenger car models that sell that well that are priced over $30,000. I would hardly call that "compliance car" territory.

Of course, if sales are that successful I'm sure LG and GM will be building out a new factory in short order. The original factory took a couple of years to build. And, of course, LG has other factories and could export enough cells to Michigan to fill the gap while they build a new US factory.

The 650,000 square-foot LG plant – which will be operated by its U.S. subsidiary, Detroit-based Compact Power, Inc. – is expected to go into operation in 2012, and by 2013, it should employ 400 workers. Initially, it will have capacity to produce enough cells for 50,000 vehicles of the size of the Volt, which uses 16 kilowatt-hours of lithium-ion cells. Eventually, that could grow to more than 200,000 vehicles.

LG Chem To Set Up Michigan Battery Plant | TheDetroitBureau.com

 

[JohnSnowNW]

And, of course, LG has other factories and could export enough cells to Michigan to fill the gap while they build a new US factory.

Assuming they have cells available that aren't destined for other use.