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Forget HOV lanes, what about HOT lanes?

Now that more and more cars are going to be out for "the masses" none of these extra things should be in place besides the tax credit limit of 250k cars. I want ALL EVs to be equal to ICE cars because it only furthers the rift of people thinking electric car drivers think they're better than everyone else.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,104
1,900
Toronto, ON
I read the story but it doesn't explain what HOT lanes are. Are they lanes that you can use if you have 3+ people or pay a toll?

Typically, they are toll lanes that you pay to drive in regardless of the number of vehicle occupants. They are common in SoCal where my brother lives. He has a transponder in his car very much like our 407-ETR transponders and gets billed for the use of HOT lanes. Think HOV lane with a transponder gantry over it.
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,017
1,565
Toronto
Typically, they are toll lanes that you pay to drive in regardless of the number of vehicle occupants. They are common in SoCal where my brother lives. He has a transponder in his car very much like our 407-ETR transponders and gets billed for the use of HOT lanes. Think HOV lane with a transponder gantry over it.
Then aren't these just toll lanes? Where does the High Occupancy aspect come in?

By the way this is what Wikipedia says on the subject:
A high-occupancy toll lane (or HOT lane) is a type of traffic lane or roadway that is available to high-occupancy vehicles and other exempt vehicles without charge; other vehicles being required to pay a variable fee that is adjusted in response to demand
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,104
1,900
Toronto, ON
Then aren't these just toll lanes? Where does the High Occupancy aspect come in?

Good point. In California, my understanding from my brother is that there are HOV lanes that are free, but you need two or more passengers, and then separately (but sometimes on the same highway) there are these toll lanes where it doesn't matter how many people are in the car. Even though he lends me his transponder when I visit, I generally stay out of the lanes anyway. That was my term of reference.

Perhaps Ontario is thinking of a single lane that is free for 2 or more passengers, but paid for everyone else. I just don't know technically how they'd implement such a solution. Knowing our government, they're probably just proposing to throw a charge on the existing HOV lanes meaning you'd need 2+ passengers and you'd have to pay!

EDIT: I suppose you could do the single lane thing with a paid permit that you display if you are alone, but wouldn't need the permit if you had 2+ passengers.
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,017
1,565
Toronto
Having a transponder but not having to pay with when you have 2 (or 3) occupants would be tricky - wouldn't you need a lead box to put your transponder in for trips when you have enough occupants?

Or rather than a lead box, a Tesla Model S since that seems to be impermeable to 407ETR transponders.
 

andrewket

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2012
5,704
1,543
Having a transponder but not having to pay with when you have 2 (or 3) occupants would be tricky - wouldn't you need a lead box to put your transponder in for trips when you have enough occupants?

Or rather than a lead box, a Tesla Model S since that seems to be impermeable to 407ETR transponders.

In the washington DC metro area we have transponders with a switch to indicate if you're solo or HOV. The marketing name is E-Z Pass Flex. In HOV mode your transponder is still read but you're not charged.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,781
South Surrey, BC
Now that more and more cars are going to be out for "the masses" none of these extra things should be in place besides the tax credit limit of 250k cars. I want ALL EVs to be equal to ICE cars because it only furthers the rift of people thinking electric car drivers think they're better than everyone else.

The goal is to get more people driving EV's to lessen CO2 emissions. That a better goal than being concerned about what people think of EV drivers.

In BC, EV's can't use HOV lanes with only one person in them which is idiotic.
 
Then aren't these just toll lanes? Where does the High Occupancy aspect come in?

Uh, it's right in the Wikipedia page that you quoted: "available to high-occupancy vehicles and other exempt vehicles without charge".

The other important aspect here is the idea of the fee being variable. This is an attempt to manage demand to match supply.
 

RubberToe

Supporting the greater good
Jun 28, 2012
3,353
8,740
El Lay
In the washington DC metro area we have transponders with a switch to indicate if you're solo or HOV. The marketing name is E-Z Pass Flex. In HOV mode your transponder is still read but you're not charged.

Same exact system in the Fas-Tracks lanes in SoCal. Transponder has a switch for 1-2-3 occupants. Solo drivers get charged, rate varies based on time of day. 2-3 occupant vehicles pay no toll. EV drivers set the transponder to 3 and forget about it. EV's have Fas-Track access 24/7/265 with no charge ever (well, until January 1, 2019) :wink:

Metro ExpressLanes

The system will soon be expanded to additional freeways.

RT
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,017
1,565
Toronto
Uh, it's right in the Wikipedia page that you quoted: "available to high-occupancy vehicles and other exempt vehicles without charge".

The other important aspect here is the idea of the fee being variable. This is an attempt to manage demand to match supply.
Yes that is what Wikipedia said but I was responding to post 5 which said that the toll is charged regardless of occupants.
 

aesculus

Still Trying to Figure This All Out
May 31, 2015
4,970
2,893
Northern California
We have one of these on I680 near Freemont of all places:smile:

I have never understood how they know how to charge you if you are solo versus having an occupant even with cameras. Since we allow babies and/or if your children were in the back, its easy to see how they could see only one occupant when you had more.

I guess if you get charged you ask for a refund?
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,104
1,900
Toronto, ON
Same exact system in the Fas-Tracks lanes in SoCal. Transponder has a switch for 1-2-3 occupants. Solo drivers get charged, rate varies based on time of day. 2-3 occupant vehicles pay no toll. EV drivers set the transponder to 3 and forget about it. EV's have Fas-Track access 24/7/265 with no charge ever (well, until January 1, 2019) :wink:

My brother lives in SoCal and I can honestly say I never noticed that. His Fas-Track transponder looked identical to the one I have here in Ontario, Canada except it was white as opposed to mine which is black.

How on earth would you ever enforce that? Why wouldn't you just leave the switch at 3 and if you are being pulled over, casually flip it to the appropriate setting?
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,017
1,565
Toronto
And implementing this in Ontario would require replacing the entire fleet of 407ETR transponders that exist to transponders with switches, or move to alternate technologies like using a smartphone to provide transponder-like capabilities (assuming such technology exists). Who is going to pay for that?
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,104
1,900
Toronto, ON
And implementing this in Ontario would require replacing the entire fleet of 407ETR transponders that exist to transponders with switches, or move to alternate technologies like using a smartphone to provide transponder-like capabilities (assuming such technology exists). Who is going to pay for that?

My guess, since the 407 is owned by a private (Spanish) company, is that we'd be looking at another transponder. Early on, before the 407 was sold, there was talk of some sort of roaming ability with the transponder in other jurisdictions. It never happened. I travel in Illinois a fair bit and hate having to pull way over to the right every couple of miles to toss coins. I wish this interoperability had actually happened!
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,017
1,565
Toronto
The new 407 East extension is owned by the Ontario govt but they are piggybacking off of the 407ETR and I believe that the 407ETR organization will handle transponders and tolling for the provincially owned portion. So the province appears to be leveraging off of the existing 407ETR infrastructure for the 407 East and it would make sense to do so with HOT lanes. But I would think that there would also be an initial capital cost to construct the HOT lanes as they would need barriers so that ingress and egress was only through the gantries.
 

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