Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Former Presidential Candidate calls for Federal Government to pull FSD from public roads ASAP

2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
3,983
6,171
USA

And before the usual group starts the typical knee-jerk defense of Elon and attack Nader (vs focusing on the problematic technology):

Nader's book and other advocacy made major waves and is a major contributor to changing the landscape of standard safety equipment in consumer vehicles today. Things like seatbelts and anti-lock brakes are standard equipment now because of his efforts.

So...lest anyone thinks the federal government doesnt pay attention to Nader..historically speaking, that would not be fact.
 

2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
3,983
6,171
USA
"Tesla's major deployment of so-called Full Self-Driving (FSD) technology is one of the most dangerous and irresponsible actions by a car company in decades. Tesla should never have put this technology in its vehicles. Now over 100,000 Tesla owners are currently using technology that research shows malfunctions every eight minutes."
 

CyberGus

Not Just a Member
May 5, 2020
1,493
3,419
Austin, TX
"Tesla's major deployment of so-called Full Self-Driving (FSD) technology is one of the most dangerous and irresponsible actions by a car company in decades. Tesla should never have put this technology in its vehicles. Now over 100,000 Tesla owners are currently using technology that research shows malfunctions every eight minutes."

More safety is good. But I dare say that human drivers "malfunction" more often than every 8 minutes!

Nader is 88 years old. I doubt he has anything more than a superficial understanding of the technology.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,366
17,012
San Diego
I won’t claim to know what is said on that screen, but would it say that thing about the accelerator pedal if Autopilot/FSD did not engage? Which it did not! I’d have to play around with it to see what the various warnings look like for a failed FSD Beta engagement, but it doesn’t matter anyway since FSD Beta was not enabled. It should have been in adaptive cruise only, I think…have to fiddle to confirm exact behaviors…but anyway it doesn’t matter.

I doubt it is the accelerator pedal warning though. They were clear about that in the affidavit for the three attempts published.

Anyway, not sure what all the hoopla about this video is. This is all covered in the other thread.

1) It confirms Tesla’s claims, so they will not sue. Why would they? Tesla is very clear that it will hit children (perhaps they should have made that their warning message instead, to get the message through!). There really is not anything worse! So that is completely consistent with Tesla’s claims about FSD Beta.

2) It’s a contrived situation to show a situation where FSD Beta will fail, as expected. No one should be surprised! This is how it works! They probably worked for a while adjusting the parameters to get this situation to reliably fail.

3) They only showed the failures.

4) This is why everyone using FSD Beta is driving the car, and not FSD Beta. It would be very unsafe to have FSD Beta in sole control of the vehicle.


We can certainly debate whether it is appropriate to be testing this system on public roads, but so far it seems reasonably safe. But there is no debate about the limitations of FSD Beta. It runs into stationary objects! Tesla tells us it will do that. It’s hard to imagine how they could be more clear.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Big Earl
I think the problem is no one has any idea what FSD works / doesn't work for, Tesla doesn't publish it, and the state of the system varies wildly release to release with many regressions.

It's hard to watch videos of recent releases of FSD beta with the car making no attempt to avoid stationary objects, moving objects crossing road, or turning left in front of an oncoming trolley car and think "oh yeah, this is going to be production ready in a few months".

Nothing we are seeing should reassure us that the problem of FSD is solvable in the 5 year timeframe.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: CyberGus and StanMI

GBMaryland

Member
Supporting Member
Aug 10, 2019
284
169
Maryland
I think the problem is no one has any idea what FSD works / doesn't work for, Tesla doesn't publish it, and the state of the system varies wildly release to release with many regressions.

It's hard to watch videos of recent releases of FSD beta with the car making no attempt to avoid stationary objects, moving objects crossing road, or turning left in front of an oncoming trolley car and think "oh yeah, this is going to be production ready in a few months".

Nothing we are seeing should reassure us that the problem of FSD is solvable in the 5 year timeframe.
Listen, Tesla is not saying that FSD will avoid objects in the road and things along those lines, as far as I know. They also completely tell you that you have to have your hands on the steering wheel and that you have to be paying attention and in control of the vehicle.

Unlike my Subaru… The Tesla is not really a nanny car. The Subaru protects you from yourself to the point where the car is almost unusable when you’re driving it ( insofar is attempting to connect a cell phone to it or attempting to read a text message using the screen, or any interaction with the screen while driving…)

Not to mention that when you take a look at the toys that they put in the road, or the one guy who’s pulling a supposed child by string across the road (that’s actually a blown up doll of some sort), its thoroughly not realistic. I doubt that the Tesla‘s will stop for that anyway… But let’s compound problem by having a completely non-realistic example…

almost all vehicles that have collision avoidance will simply slow down the vehicle so that the accident’s not as bad. In all cases you are required to interact completely avoid the problem.

What about all the SUVs out there where you can’t see anything in front of the hood of the car, especially a little kid? Most of them don’t have forward looking cameras, and it turns out the rear facing camera can’t see a child behind the car either in testing… but yet I don’t see them putting out commercials to deal with that.

So I don’t really see how Tesla garners special attention; it seems to me that someone has a bug up their ass because they don’t like the idea of working out a semi autonomous full self driving system. Sure Tesla is by no means done with this… but some dude claiming “its the worst software he’s ever seen” is totally full of C – R – A – P.
 
Listen, Tesla is not saying that FSD will avoid objects in the road and things along those lines, as far as I know. They also completely tell you that you have to have your hands on the steering wheel and that you have to be paying attention and in control of the vehicle.

Unlike my Subaru… The Tesla is not really a nanny car. The Subaru protects you from yourself to the point where the car is almost unusable when you’re driving it ( insofar is attempting to connect a cell phone to it or attempting to read a text message using the screen, or any interaction with the screen while driving…)

Not to mention that when you take a look at the toys that they put in the road, or the one guy who’s pulling a supposed child by string across the road (that’s actually a blown up doll of some sort), its thoroughly not realistic. I doubt that the Tesla‘s will stop for that anyway… But let’s compound problem by having a completely non-realistic example…

almost all vehicles that have collision avoidance will simply slow down the vehicle so that the accident’s not as bad. In all cases you are required to interact completely avoid the problem.

What about all the SUVs out there where you can’t see anything in front of the hood of the car, especially a little kid? Most of them don’t have forward looking cameras, and it turns out the rear facing camera can’t see a child behind the car either in testing… but yet I don’t see them putting out commercials to deal with that.

So I don’t really see how Tesla garners special attention; it seems to me that someone has a bug up their ass because they don’t like the idea of working out a semi autonomous full self driving system. Sure Tesla is by no means done with this… but some dude claiming “its the worst software he’s ever seen” is totally full of C – R – A – P.

Active safety features come standard on all Tesla vehicles made after September 2014 for elevated protection at all times. These features are made possible by our Autopilot hardware and software system and include:

  • Automatic Emergency Braking: Detects cars or obstacles that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's be honest with ourselves here.
How can Tesla unleash this Beta into the hands of 100K drivers who are lead to believe their car can "navigate city streets" when we are also supposed to believe that "Tesla is not saying that FSD will avoid objects in the road".

The larger problem isn't the current state of FSD, but the gap between Musk/Tesla years of bold statements & the current state as it's rolled out to more "testers".

We are supposed to believe its both the most advanced autonomous car and also that it can't be expected to, in the general case, brake/slow/stop/steer around stationary or moving objects of any kind (humans/animals/crash dummies/vehicles/bollards/trains).

Drivers are going to give the car a little too much leash & benefit of the doubt, expecting it to be much more capable than it is.
This is malpractice, especially in light of public statements of wanting 1M beta testers by end of year.

Post all the anecdotes of "it avoided an obstacle on this one specific build of FSD in this one specific test this one time" but this is not how you would grade a human driver. A human driver that handles only 99 out of 100 objects in the road will get kicked off their insurance every year with all the accident claims they'd be making.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkForest
I mean isn't implied that the car can avoid crashing into obstacles with tweets like this?

FSD 10 predicts height from video pixels directly, without needing to classify groups of pixels into objects. In principle, even if a UFO crashed on the road right in front of you, it would still avoid the debris. Some work still needed to tune sensitivity.

Also, FSD Beta 10.12.2 now expanding to 100k cars. 10.13 smooths out intersection control, especially long lefts, and starts to handle roads with no map data at all. Last point is a big deal. Within a few months, FSD should be able to drive to a GPS point with zero map data.

Yes, car will navigate to a pin location, even if in a complex surface parking lot or hotel entrance. When in covered or underground parking lots, car will have to navigate using only inertial measurement, wheel movement & vision, as GPS signal is no longer available.
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top