Four Upcoming Self Driving Level 3 Cars by 2019

[Tam]

...watch videos, text, work on presentation, finish homework, skype...

Around here in central CA, city police departments have increased enforcement on cell phone usage in cars: Adult drivers would be ticketed if caught holding a phone (hands-free usage is ok), drivers under 18 years old are not allowed to use phone at all whether hands on or hands-free.

I would be less likely to get caught with a high speed autosteer on freeway than low speed zFAZ in city.

Until California DMV would change its cell phone laws, it's another disadvantage against my interest in Audi zFAZ.

 

[Bladerskb]

Around here in central CA, city police departments have increased enforcement on cell phone usage in cars: Adult drivers would be ticketed if caught holding a phone (hands-free usage is ok), drivers under 18 years old are not allowed to use phone at all whether hands on or hands-free.

I would be less likely to get caught with a high speed autosteer on freeway than low speed zFAZ in city.

Until California DMV would change its cell phone laws, it's another disadvantage against my interest in Audi zFAZ.

good thing zFAS works only on freeways.

 

[Tam]

...a little surprising...

I don't see how Ford and GM are leading.

Technology/safety-wise, Google/Waymo should be a leader.

 

[Snuffysasa]

New Audi A8 due by end of 2017.
Complete autonomous driving for a single lane on the highway while under 35mph. It is based on their jack prototype and uses mobileye eyeq3 chip on a board called zFAS. Its latest sensors include 12 Ultrasonics, 8 Radars, 4 Top View Camera, 1 Wide View Front Camera and 2 Lidars (Forward & Rear)

Nissan in 2018
"Complete autonomous driving for all driving situation on the highway."
Propilot 2.0 (multi-lane) Based on their Nissan Intelligent Driving platform, uses 5 Radars, 4 Lidars and 8 (12 now) surround cameras. It uses the mobileye eyeq4 chip including REM map of every highway in partnership with Zenrin.



Volvo in 2019
Based on their L4 Drive Me prototype using mobileye eyeQ4. Sensors include 7 radars, 7 cameras, 12 ultrasonics and 1 forward lidar.



Prototype Car
Volvo Drive Me - Public Autonomous Driving Experiment - XC90 SUV

Autopilot
Introducing Volvo Interface for Self-Driving Cars

Honda in 2019
uses mobileye eyeq4


Source
26 mins
Prof. Amnon Shashua delivers Mobileye press conference at CES 2017 autonomous cars

Good post. And the CES 2017 mobileye keynote is a good summary.

Audi: I agree this is the first level 3 system, a great step for autonomy. Hopefully in a few years they can bring it to full speed on highways. But I agree that this is one of the most advanced systems out there coming at the end of this year. First level 3 sold to general public.

Nissan: I am very excited about propilot 2.0 in 2018, for multilane highways and autonomous lane changing.... can't wait to see some more updates. However, Nissan has clarified this is not Level 3, its a level 2 system like EAP. Nissan also said in 2020, there "intersection autonomy" will also be L2. Nissan and Tesla seem to be the only companies pushing advanced L2 systems, where the other companies are focusing on L3 and L4s to work in certain conditions.

Volvo: I was away of DriveMe, but I was unaware that Volvo is realizing a car in 2019 with this technology... source?

Honda: I am looking for a source on this too?

I imagine you are looking at the chart that Amnon Shashua showed at CES 2017? I am curious about this and have some questions. Think you can please direct message me?

Unless it's something new since last month, it is quoted:

"Revolutionary piloted driving tech has been confirmed for the A8. Long-range radar sensors, 12 ultrasonic sensors, laser scanners and hi-resolution video cameras will constantly monitor the car’s surroundings, with the system also able to guide a car safely through traffic jams at up to speeds of 37mph."


What kind of revolution is that? Lots of expensive hardware and can only function at 37 mph?

I was crowing that my Tesla AP2 is able to take any curve as long as posted speed limit signs are observed and owners were hopping mad because they said most don't observe speed limits. I was citing CA-99 for 70 mph and here, you are talking about 37 mph?

Really?

Bladerskb already explained this, but yes this is a level 3 system. This is the first and only system this advanced available. If the system gets in an accident, the driver is not at fault, Audi takes responsibility for it.. This difference is night and day compared to Tesla AP.

Tesla Autopilot has no plans to go to level 3. and will probably jus jump to level 4, around 2020.

From https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

Here is how L3 driving is defined, quote: "the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene "

Sounds like what EAP is targeted to do but with far fewer sensors than any of the car systems you listed, none of which are for sale yet.

Your analysis is incorrect. In an L3 car you have to be actively monitoring the environment outside the car and be ready to take over at a moment's notice.

EAP is not targeted to that. EAP is only going to be Level 2, where the driver still has to monitor the environment and take over instantaneously. and human is responsible for vehicle 100% of the time.

Around here in central CA, city police departments have increased enforcement on cell phone usage in cars: Adult drivers would be ticketed if caught holding a phone (hands-free usage is ok), drivers under 18 years old are not allowed to use phone at all whether hands on or hands-free.

I would be less likely to get caught with a high speed autosteer on freeway than low speed zFAZ in city.

Until California DMV would change its cell phone laws, it's another disadvantage against my interest in Audi zFAZ.

I am not sure california's laws exactly. but in most states the laws are something like, "cannot use call phone, or cannot text when driving or when operating a motor vehicle" ... with this Audi system... you will not be driving, not operating a vehicle, not responsible for the car.

If a cop pulls you over, you can say, "sorry, office I was not driving." And you could take him to court and win. Audi/the computer is driving and is responsible. This is quite different form current systems in the road by Tesla and other, which are L2, and only driver assist systems.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am not sure california's laws exactly. but in most states the laws are something like, "cannot use call phone, or cannot text when driving or when operating a motor vehicle" ... with this Audi system... you will not be driving, not operating a vehicle, not responsible for the car.

If a cop pulls you over, you can say, "sorry, office I was not driving." And you could take him to court and win. Audi/the computer is driving and is responsible. This is quite different form current systems in the road by Tesla and other, which are L2, and only driver assist systems.

Good luck trying to win that case under today's legal framework. For their part, Audi has come out and said they will not release it in consumer hands until there is explicit legal framework to allow for it.
Audi's A8 self-driving tech depends on regulatory changes

 

[Snuffysasa]

Good luck trying to win that case under today's legal framework. For their part, Audi has come out and said they will not release it in consumer hands until there is explicit legal framework to allow for it.
Audi's A8 self-driving tech depends on regulatory changes

Audi was waiting for Germany to update their laws for it. Which Germany has done now.

Also, there is no law in the US (in most states) that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Audi was waiting for Germany to update their laws for it. Which Germany has done now.

Also, there is no law in the US (in most states) that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles.

Well there was no law in Germany that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles either. What Audi is talking about is the legal uncertainty. They aren't going to let the consumer hold the bag in terms of fighting lawsuits involving the vehicles. So they are going to wait for regulations to catch up.

 

[Snuffysasa]

Well there was no law in Germany that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles either. What Audi is talking about is the legal uncertainty. They aren't going to let the consumer hold the bag in terms of fighting lawsuits involving the vehicles. So they are going to wait for regulations to catch up.

We'll see Germany did pass laws now that allows for autonomous vehicles, and puts companies responsible for accidents when driving mode is on. So this would work with Audi Traffic Jam Pilot. And they may enable it in US too even if it is a grey area. This will force countries to make regulations.

 

[croman]

We'll see Germany did pass laws now that allows for autonomous vehicles, and puts companies responsible for accidents when driving mode is on. So this would work with Audi Traffic Jam Pilot. And they may enable it in US too even if it is a grey area. This will force countries to make regulations.

You aren't familiar with the US legislative process, are you? We have a very complicated and tortuous system of creating laws. Even administrative agencies must create, publish, refine, republish, approve rules and regulations. Then we have local municipal, county, state, and federal layers of laws that regulate driving.

In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.

Also the German law, like those in California, Nevada, Michigan (recently) and some municipalities (such as Pittsburgh), only allows commercial testing, not actual consumer use (yet). It has a sunrise and recheck provision in 2018 when they anticipate actually testing the L3 Audi autonomous system.

There are still outstanding provisions that aren't finalized that will prevent its implementation such as data collection, privacy, handoff timing requirements, and the specifications for the "black box" which serves as the proof of driver vs. system culpability. Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).

So, in short, I expect Audi to debut its L3 but don't think the legal framework is anything but a giant clusterF.

 

[Snuffysasa]

You aren't familiar with the US legislative process, are you? We have a very complicated and tortuous system of creating laws. Even administrative agencies must create, publish, refine, republish, approve rules and regulations. Then we have local municipal, county, state, and federal layers of laws that regulate driving.

In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.

Also the German law, like those in California, Nevada, Michigan (recently) and some municipalities (such as Pittsburgh), only allows commercial testing, not actual consumer use (yet). It has a sunrise and recheck provision in 2018 when they anticipate actually testing the L3 Audi autonomous system.

There are still outstanding provisions that aren't finalized that will prevent its implementation such as data collection, privacy, handoff timing requirements, and the specifications for the "black box" which serves as the proof of driver vs. system culpability. Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).

So, in short, I expect Audi to debut its L3 but don't think the legal framework is anything but a giant clusterF.

You are wrong.

""In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.""

This will work even in the USA. Audi has said so themselves they will claim responsibility for accidents. This is definition of L3.
Similarly, Volvo in Sweden, is claiming responsibility for any accidents there L3 program causes.


I feel it will be many years before a real L3+ system is at fault for any accident. and even when it does happen, it will extremely rare.




""Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).""

this is also wrong. This is totally different kind of system that is in Tesla's and other L2 systems.

These systems do not disengage without a proper handoff... If the human does not take over in a L3 system with in 15+ seconds(varies) then the system will pull over and come to a complete stop.

totally different from a L2 system.

 

[Bladerskb]

Nissan: I am very excited about propilot 2.0 in 2018, for multilane highways and autonomous lane changing.... can't wait to see some more updates. However, Nissan has clarified this is not Level 3, its a level 2 system like EAP. Nissan also said in 2020, there "intersection autonomy" will also be L2. Nissan and Tesla seem to be the only companies pushing advanced L2 systems, where the other companies are focusing on L3 and L4s to work in certain conditions.

Source?

 

[Snuffysasa]

Source?

Levels of autonomy less important to Nissan’s experts | TU-Automotive

There is another link I am looking for where they explain there multi lane in 2018 and there fully autonomous in 2020 will be "eyes on" and L2

 

[brkaus]

You are wrong.

""In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.""

This will work even in the USA. Audi has said so themselves they will claim responsibility for accidents. This is definition of L3.
Similarly, Volvo in Sweden, is claiming responsibility for any accidents there L3 program causes.


I feel it will be many years before a real L3+ system is at fault for any accident. and even when it does happen, it will extremely rare.




""Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).""

this is also wrong. This is totally different kind of system that is in Tesla's and other L2 systems.

These systems do not disengage without a proper handoff... If the human does not take over in a L3 system with in 15+ seconds(varies) then the system will pull over and come to a complete stop.

totally different from a L2 system.

Just to throw a hypothetical out there -

Owner fails to maintain tires - so bad cords are showing (this happened in my BMW with staggered setup - rear inside wore out and I failed to notice it).

Car driving on L3, has a blowout and wrecks. Who's at fault?

Not a lawyer, not trying to cause arguments Kent's, but honestly curious.

 

[Snuffysasa]

Just to throw a hypothetical out there -

Owner fails to maintain tires - so bad cords are showing (this happened in my BMW with staggered setup - rear inside wore out and I failed to notice it).

Car driving on L3, has a blowout and wrecks. Who's at fault?

Not a lawyer, not trying to cause arguments Kent's, but honestly curious.

L3 cars will need to be able to do diagnostics to make sure they are capable of driving.

But also in some cases if the the system is unable to tell, in may be the owners fault if it is due to poor maintenance.

 

[Bladerskb]

Levels of autonomy less important to Nissan’s experts | TU-Automotive

There is another link I am looking for where they explain there multi lane in 2018 and there fully autonomous in 2020 will be "eyes on" and L2

Help me understand because there is nothing there that says propilot 2 or their multi lane system or that even L3 highway won't happen in 2018 or that it will be years in the future.

What is said however is how difficult level 3 is (Its pretty much as difficult as level 4).

"At Nissan we do eyes-on, or what people call Level 2.”

There he is referring to their current production system which is proPilot 1.
However when talking about level 3, he says they can do highway level 3.

“The hard thing with Level 3 and above is not having a human in the loop and so we need to take these steps carefully to get people to trust the technology before we are willing to take those steps. It has to use a system that can drive everywhere ‘acceptably’. With highway driving I believe we can do it but city driving is a different ball game. Nissan would like to cross that divide and we would like to deliver the capability of driving in the city because it might be safer if we provide these sensor technologies in autonomous vehicles.”


Then he said urban level 3 will be up to 5 years away.

“If I can provide a reasonable value for people to drive eyes-off in the city in ways that are safe and where they don’t have to constantly look up and see what’s going on that’s a difficult proposition. "

This article actually supports my thread and view on nissan, thanks

 

[Snuffysasa]

Help me understand because there is nothing there that says propilot 2 or their multi lane system or that even L3 highway won't happen in 2018 or that it will be years in the future.

What is said however is how difficult level 3 is (Its pretty much as difficult as level 4).

"At Nissan we do eyes-on, or what people call Level 2.”

There he is referring to their current production system which is proPilot 1.
However when talking about level 3, he says they can do highway level 3.

“The hard thing with Level 3 and above is not having a human in the loop and so we need to take these steps carefully to get people to trust the technology before we are willing to take those steps. It has to use a system that can drive everywhere ‘acceptably’. With highway driving I believe we can do it but city driving is a different ball game. Nissan would like to cross that divide and we would like to deliver the capability of driving in the city because it might be safer if we provide these sensor technologies in autonomous vehicles.”


Then he said urban level 3 will be up to 5 years away.

“If I can provide a reasonable value for people to drive eyes-off in the city in ways that are safe and where they don’t have to constantly look up and see what’s going on that’s a difficult proposition. "

This article actually supports my thread and view on nissan, thanks

So you may be right on this actually. I am reading it carefully now.

So he is saying L3 city driving is 5 years away, but L3 highway could happen sooner? like 2018?

What does this mean for the 2020 system then?

Also If Nissan , Volvo, Honda release L3 systems in 2018/2019. I am not sure they will be available in US. May be Japan only or Sweden only.

 

[Az_Rael]

They can have the ability to send updates over the air but do they have a plan to implement that kind of service any time soon?

FYI: Ford and Chevy are both doing OTA updates now:

Ford Using OTA Update To Add Android Auto & Apple CarPlay To Sync 3 Outfitted 2016 Vehicles (It would be awesome if Tesla would push us an update to add Android Auto and Carplay - or even regular USB connectivity to my phone, honestly)

From the Chevy Bolt Manual:

 

[Tam]

...Ford Using OTA Update To Add Android Auto & Apple CarPlay To Sync 3 Outfitted 2016 Vehicles...

Thanks for the info.

That's a nice start to OTA for infotainment system.

It would be nice if Volvo will do the same to increase the freeway speed from 35 mph to 90 mph and to transition from freeway drive to city drive all by OTA.

 

[stopcrazypp]

FYI: Ford and Chevy are both doing OTA updates now:

Ford Using OTA Update To Add Android Auto & Apple CarPlay To Sync 3 Outfitted 2016 Vehicles (It would be awesome if Tesla would push us an update to add Android Auto and Carplay - or even regular USB connectivity to my phone, honestly)

From the Chevy Bolt Manual:
View attachment 228316

Note, that's for infotainment systems only, while Tesla OTA updates also affects the driving system. But it's baby steps and getting there slowly. It'll be interesting to see when they get to the driving system if they'll also do some of the more controversial adjustments Tesla is doing (related to performance and charging speed).

 

[paraglide]

Just found this thread, interesting to see Nissan failed to meet their 2.0 highway feature set in 2018 (I see no mention of it anywhere yet) and Volvo still seems to be using EyeQ3 despite video suggesting they would be on EyeQ4 by now. When is a Tesla AP competitor coming from other manufactures in economy cars?