Frame Failure called "Normal Wear and Tear" by Tesla Service

[rickyjb]

I've just been told by Tesla Chelmsford (UK) service centre that my rear sub frame is cracked. My car is a 2014 P85. Drive unit (the 3rd one since 23,000 miles) was replaced in July. I have driven 5000 miles since then, so the car is up to 73,000 miles now.

It was all fine until last week, when I missed my turning on a country road. I braked hard (there was nothing behind me), came to a complete stop, put it in reverse, backed up about 40 feet, came to a complete stop again, put it in drive and then had this bang every so often from that point. I thought it was sloppy driveshafts, but it only made the bang in reverse. Tesla are now putting a quote together to fix it, as its not part of the drivetrain (go figure?), and apparently putting it into reverse before stopping can cause this. You can't actually put it in reverse while still moving , as the software stops that happening, so they are lying.
Looking at going legal with this, as I have all the time in the world, and will quite happily stand outside the Tesla showroom telling all the new potential customers about how Tesla really look after their customers. As an Engineer, I can see this is a piss poor design. The fact that it breaks with normal driving to so many of us just proves that.

i had this exact same problem . 2014 p85 (seems to really affect these cars)

from tesla
"We have investigated your concern in relation to the clunk noise. We have found that the rear mount for the drive unit has completely snapped and will required a replacement sub frame to resolve. "

"We have taken the liberty to escalate this concern with our Service Manager and the engineers for Europe. On investigation, we are able to advised there has been no manufacturing defect to cause this issue and the cause is due to torsional motion. As the vehicle is now out of warranty we would require your approval to proceed with the recommended repairs."

Please find below the estimate of repair:
· Sub frame repair
o Parts: 1465.00 GBP(incl VAT)
o Labor: 1252.00 GBP (incl VAT and wheel alignment)

i went to Dartford for mine , they had the car for nearly 3 weeks . delays in getting the sub frame , and delays in getting the alignment correct after replacement . they also replaced a door handle while it was in for the subframe work, but didnt plug back in the puddle light when re assembling the door. the connector was hanging out the bottom and was squashed by the door. ( this was fixed for free after i complained)

they gave it back to me with tpms fault code that appeared 2 miles after me collecting it . turns out the tpms module had just stopped working. ranger visit confirmed they would have had to remove it when replacing the sub frame , so likely damaged it then.

ive not taken my car back to Tesla since , i now use cleevely ev in Cheltenham for any work needed. bit far from London , but they are good at what they do and very reasonable on price.

 

[Zuikkis]

It's interesting that all suspension related issues seem to happen when reversing? Front & rear control arms and also this sub frame failure.

It's like Tesla engineers had top priorioty how to handle max acceleration forwards, and then forgot the reversing part.

Looking at the pictures, to me it seems like you could ALMOST just use a ratchet tie down strap to secure the drive unit to the sub frame? There's no way it's escaping anywhere from there, at least if there is enough of the flange left to prevent sideways movement. When accelerating (forwards) the drive unit is being pushed towards the sub frame.

It should be possible to build an external reinforcement that is bolted to subframe and could be installed in place, without dropping the rear axle..

 

[nexsuperne101]

i had this exact same problem . 2014 p85 (seems to really affect these cars)

from tesla
"We have investigated your concern in relation to the clunk noise. We have found that the rear mount for the drive unit has completely snapped and will required a replacement sub frame to resolve. "

"We have taken the liberty to escalate this concern with our Service Manager and the engineers for Europe. On investigation, we are able to advised there has been no manufacturing defect to cause this issue and the cause is due to torsional motion. As the vehicle is now out of warranty we would require your approval to proceed with the recommended repairs."

Please find below the estimate of repair:
· Sub frame repair
o Parts: 1465.00 GBP(incl VAT)
o Labor: 1252.00 GBP (incl VAT and wheel alignment)

i went to Dartford for mine , they had the car for nearly 3 weeks . delays in getting the sub frame , and delays in getting the alignment correct after replacement . they also replaced a door handle while it was in for the subframe work, but didnt plug back in the puddle light when re assembling the door. the connector was hanging out the bottom and was squashed by the door. ( this was fixed for free after i complained)

they gave it back to me with tpms fault code that appeared 2 miles after me collecting it . turns out the tpms module had just stopped working. ranger visit confirmed they would have had to remove it when replacing the sub frame , so likely damaged it then.

ive not taken my car back to Tesla since , i now use cleevely ev in Cheltenham for any work needed. bit far from London , but they are good at what they do and very reasonable on price.

I'm basing my costs on what you have been charged, as no one else in the UK has posted what they had to pay. The USA quotes do seem to vary wildly, from $2100 to $3500 all in for the exact same job. At the moment, Tesla haven't quoted. I'm keen to get this resolved ASAP. The initial WTF shock from yesterday has now worn off, and I just have to think of it that I haven't spent anything on it in 50,000 miles, so a £2500 bill is only 5p a mile, which is still way less than oil changes, petrol, road tax and congestion charge would have ever been on a £500 rollerskate rot box.
It is without doubt specifically a P85 issue, and I am sure that the 4wd of the later P85D version negated the affects of all the power going through 2 rear subframe bolts.

 

[MP3Mike]

It is without doubt specifically a P85 issue, and I am sure that the 4wd of the later P85D version negated the affects of all the power going through 2 rear subframe bolts.

I think, like with the control arms, Tesla has "newer versions of the subject components, which have improved performance in abuse scenarios." So a new replacement sub-frame shouldn't fail in the same way as quickly/easily.

 

[nexsuperne101]

I think, like with the control arms, Tesla has "newer versions of the subject components, which have improved performance in abuse scenarios." So a new replacement sub-frame shouldn't fail in the same way as quickly/easily.

I'm hoping that you are right. I am curious to see what the warranty period is for a brand new replacement part. I wouldn't be impressed if it falls apart in a year and I have to shell out another £2500.....

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm hoping that you are right. I am curious to see what the warranty period is for a brand new replacement part. I wouldn't be impressed if it falls apart in a year and I have to shell out another £2500.....

Their parts warranty is pretty standard, 1 year/12,500 miles for most parts:

The Tesla Parts, Body & Paint Repair Limited Warranty begins on the purchase date of the part(s), and coverage extends for a period of 12 months or 12,500 miles, which ever comes first. Specific categories of parts have unique warranty coverage periods:

• Sheet metal: Limited lifetime
• Drive Unit*: 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first
• Vehicle High Voltage Battery*: 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first
• Wall Connectors: 4 years
• Touchscreen and Media Control Unit: 2 years or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first

*Excludes the Tesla Roadster, which has a warranty of 2 years or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first.

You can always ask for your bad sub-frame back and get a local welding shop to repair it for probably a couple hundred dollars, at most. To have ready for next time. (Which I would hope doesn't ever happen.)

 

[rickyjb]

I'm basing my costs on what you have been charged, as no one else in the UK has posted what they had to pay. The USA quotes do seem to vary wildly, from $2100 to $3500 all in for the exact same job. At the moment, Tesla haven't quoted. I'm keen to get this resolved ASAP. The initial WTF shock from yesterday has now worn off, and I just have to think of it that I haven't spent anything on it in 50,000 miles, so a £2500 bill is only 5p a mile, which is still way less than oil changes, petrol, road tax and congestion charge would have ever been on a £500 rollerskate rot box.
It is without doubt specifically a P85 issue, and I am sure that the 4wd of the later P85D version negated the affects of all the power going through 2 rear subframe bolts.

let us know what they quote you , also raise concern over the other suspension components that are being recalled . ask them to visually inspect these parts on your service appointment . that way you have it on the invoice saying they checked them , could help if they fail at a later date.

as for my new subframe its been 10500mi since replacement. not had any trouble with it since . ill try and dig out the service invoice to see what part number i was given , would be interesting to see if they have made any revisions since .

 

[rickyjb]

just found the invoice , part number for subframe was REAR SUBFRAME ASSY 6007012-00-E

don't know why i had to pay for diagnostics . the tech got in the car with me i made the car clunk once , he said straight away its your motor mounts , will need a new subframe .

 

[nexsuperne101]

just found the invoice , part number for subframe was REAR SUBFRAME ASSY 6007012-00-EView attachment 603360

don't know why i had to pay for diagnostics . the tech got in the car with me i made the car clunk once , he said straight away its your motor mounts , will need a new subframe .

My P85 has just been quoted at £2752, however, I think they added every bolt option possible, some of which are costed at £9 a bolt?! I have given the go ahead, as I need it back. Yes, its a lot of money, but I can earn that back in a little over a week, and the Ford Fiesta is already driving me bonkers....its so slow!!!!! (that and the amount of times I have tried to put it in drive and turned the wipers on.....)

 

[Ssvladi]

Got the same issue on December 27
2014 p85. Service center blame me for harsh acceleration and potholes....
$3300 quote. Tried to argue, seems like it’s useless, like barking on the wall.
Filing with Nhtsa right now

so basically after back an forth with Tesla, they said that the issue was my “driving style”... I’m averaging less than 300 WH/mi in my 40k miles I put on the car.. anyways my 2nd drive unit was replaced prior to subframe cracked. I took it to my indie mechanic just to get opinion. He said that snap on the frame is a poor design but was probably caused by poor DU installation since the mount was bended at slight different angle than 90degree. And since it was slightly bended, torque distribution was uneven and since they only have one mount on rear side of subframe, it snaps.
Pics attached not sure if you can see slight angle but snap is clearly visible on both sides.

Anyways, best of luck to all P85 owners, we should unite and do something about it. I fixed my car back in April, just got notifications that this thread is still alive.

best
Vladi

 

[Droschke]

so basically after back an forth with Tesla, they said that the issue was my “driving style”... I’m averaging less than 300 WH/mi in my 40k miles I put on the car.. anyways my 2nd drive unit was replaced prior to subframe cracked. I took it to my indie mechanic just to get opinion. He said that snap on the frame is a poor design but was probably caused by poor DU installation since the mount was bended at slight different angle than 90degree. And since it was slightly bended, torque distribution was uneven and since they only have one mount on rear side of subframe, it snaps.
Pics attached not sure if you can see slight angle but snap is clearly visible on both sides. View attachment 603763 View attachment 603764 Anyways, best of luck to all P85 owners, we should unite and do something about it. I fixed my car back in April, just got notifications that this thread is still alive.

best
Vladi

The gap is very visible in your second picture. Did you file that NHTSA case you had mentioned in your previous post?

 

[Ssvladi]

The gap is very visible in your second picture. Did you file that NHTSA case you had mentioned in your previous post?

I did, but never received anything back from them. Filed back in January. I don't think its moving anywhere right now due to pandemic.

 

[nexsuperne101]

I had a phone call from a Tesla senior sales guy Friday morning to discuss my thoughts on Tesla, as I have had mine longer than most, and probably driven further (73,000 miles so far in mine, plus about 20,000 in various S and X loaners). I laughed at the start of the call and explained that it's really not the best day to phone me to hear how wonderful I thought Tesla were. I went on to tell him about the rear subframe, and the subsequent £2752 bill. He could see that I had referred several clients, who bought Model S and X's and then also told him that another of my clients that morning had pulled the trigger on a 2 year lease on a Model 3. He asked if I would be interested in another Tesla, and I told him that I will have a German built Plaid Model S late next year, not as a replacement, but as a start to my Tesla collection. He is now aware of the P85 issue, and also about the group of us on this page. He said he will speak to the service manager at Chelmsford and see what can be done about the cost. Obviously, if they want at least another £139k out of me, then what they do now is pivotal.

 

[nexsuperne101]

so basically after back an forth with Tesla, they said that the issue was my “driving style”... I’m averaging less than 300 WH/mi in my 40k miles I put on the car.. anyways my 2nd drive unit was replaced prior to subframe cracked. I took it to my indie mechanic just to get opinion. He said that snap on the frame is a poor design but was probably caused by poor DU installation since the mount was bended at slight different angle than 90degree. And since it was slightly bended, torque distribution was uneven and since they only have one mount on rear side of subframe, it snaps.
Pics attached not sure if you can see slight angle but snap is clearly visible on both sides. View attachment 603763 View attachment 603764 Anyways, best of luck to all P85 owners, we should unite and do something about it. I fixed my car back in April, just got notifications that this thread is still alive.

best
Vladi

Thanks for the picture. 2 things I note from this design. The first is no nyloc nut on the end of that bolt, so just a standard nut and bolt, torqued down to a suitable rating for the diameter, material type and thread pitch. That then creates another problem, as aluminium is a soft material compared to steel. This gap should be shimmed to stop it compressing the bracket together and bending it out of shape, causing further stresses. I will be taking this further with the Service manager if I don't get a satisfactory result.

 

[MP3Mike]

I will have a German built Plaid Model S late next year,

No you won't. Model S is only going to be built in Fremont, at least according to everything Tesla has said.

 

[nexsuperne101]

No you won't. Model S is only going to be built in Fremont, at least according to everything Tesla has said.

That will be a shame, as American quality is terrible compared to German. It could seriously push me over to Porsche or Audi.

 

[rickyjb]

I had a phone call from a Tesla senior sales guy Friday morning to discuss my thoughts on Tesla, as I have had mine longer than most, and probably driven further (73,000 miles so far in mine, plus about 20,000 in various S and X loaners). I laughed at the start of the call and explained that it's really not the best day to phone me to hear how wonderful I thought Tesla were. I went on to tell him about the rear subframe, and the subsequent £2752 bill. He could see that I had referred several clients, who bought Model S and X's and then also told him that another of my clients that morning had pulled the trigger on a 2 year lease on a Model 3. He asked if I would be interested in another Tesla, and I told him that I will have a German built Plaid Model S late next year, not as a replacement, but as a start to my Tesla collection. He is now aware of the P85 issue, and also about the group of us on this page. He said he will speak to the service manager at Chelmsford and see what can be done about the cost. Obviously, if they want at least another £139k out of me, then what they do now is pivotal.

would be great to see something positive come from this , but i get the feeling its all talk . keep us posted

 

[David.85D]

Thanks for the picture. 2 things I note from this design. The first is no nyloc nut on the end of that bolt, so just a standard nut and bolt, torqued down to a suitable rating for the diameter, material type and thread pitch. That then creates another problem, as aluminium is a soft material compared to steel. This gap should be shimmed to stop it compressing the bracket together and bending it out of shape, causing further stresses. I will be taking this further with the Service manager if I don't get a satisfactory result.

I was thinking about this repair myself and thought the exact same thing. The mount needs to be shimmed very close to the opening size or that big bolt will bend the ears over... and you have what we keep seeing.

A shoulder bolt in the right size would also help if one could be found that fits. The bolt is loaded in double shear. The nut is doing nothing except keeping it from vibrating away.

 

[nexsuperne101]

would be great to see something positive come from this , but i get the feeling its all talk . keep us posted

Well, Tesla won't budge on price. All I wanted was the labour written off (£1250). I will no longer recommend Tesla to any of my clients. My next purchase will be Porsche or Audi.

 

[TechOps]

Well, Tesla won't budge on price. All I wanted was the labour written off (£1250). I will no longer recommend Tesla to any of my clients. My next purchase will be Porsche or Audi.

Keep us posted about the out-of-warranty service and repair costs on your Porsche or Audi!