Free supercharger or pay per use?

[Bimbels]

He said many times that it is free for life for S and X. As far as I remember, he never indicated it will be free for 3.

He HAS said it would be free for all Teslas, including the 3. He was asked about it in an interview (maybe BBC?) and he said it would be the same as it is for the S and X. I think f they do anything different than what they're doing right now, it will be to go back to the original $2000 extra (option) to have supercharger access, as they did with the 60. Again and again Elon has said he wants it to be simple. That's as simple as it gets.

That's why it's frustrating to me to see these threads over and over. It came straight from the horses mouth yet people still want to debate.

 

[MiamiNole]

What's funny is, with the complaint being that we are currently seeing SC abuse with some Model S owners, limiting the SC use of Model 3 owners or making Model 3 owners pay per use still would not address any problems of Model S owners abusing SCs. It's not like Tesla is going to cease production of the Model S (not to mention X's) and current owners would then be "safe" with their "free" SC access. Model S's (and X's) will still be sold and use of SCs would still grow with or without Model 3's getting free access.

And I doubt that Tesla and EM would want to get into the sticky situation of using income from Model 3 reservations and sales to continue to expand the SC network while singling out and limiting SC use of Model 3 owners, after EM has already said that SC would be free for all Teslas.

 

[Bimbels]

What's funny is, with the complaint being that we are currently seeing SC abuse with some Model S owners, limiting the SC use of Model 3 owners or making Model 3 owners pay per use still would not address any problems of Model S owners abusing SCs. It's not like Tesla is going to cease production of the Model S (not to mention X's) and current owners would then be "safe" with their "free" SC access. Model S's (and X's) will still be sold and use of SCs would still grow with or without Model 3's getting free access.

And I doubt that Tesla and EM would want to get into the sticky situation of using income from Model 3 reservations and sales to continue to expand the SC network while singling out and limiting SC use of Model 3 owners, after EM has already said that SC would be free for all Teslas.

True - but I also think this purported "abuse" is overblown. Between my husband and I we've used approx 16 supercharger stations in the NE and mid atlantic. (our regular commutes, plus vacation weekend road trips.) I've never seen abuse. And i've only had to wait once - at a SC with only 2 stalls on a holiday weekend. People are pretty much aware of the etiquette since when someone is being a dick it impacts them - so they're not going to be a dick themselves. They also have better things to do with their time than hang out at SCs to save few bucks.

 

[Vince Cobelo]

There are other possibilities on how TMC might deal with this.... Priority and speed. Just thinking out loud. What if the chargers were throttled for M3 unless they paid a premium. What if some stalls were reserved for MS?

Supposedly the book value of the charging network on the balance sheet is now $340M. 3x (I'm rounding from memory) from last year. You can bet that a half billion dollar asset (probably next years valuation) on the books has to start generating revenue not just sitting there as goodwill. Somehow, someway TMC will translate the charging network into a quantifiable return on asset and contributing to cash flow. Has to happen. Do not care what Elon says in public.

 

[Muaddid]

I don't think so, this is what makes a Tesla so much better than a Bolt or whatever BMW or Porche can come up with. It's what makes Telsa cars, cars, and not commuters cars. Considering what was said before before EM himself and the cost vs income value of charging, I really think it'll just be a free to use and if they spot one person using the same supercharger every day close to their home because they're too cheap, they can see it, and act on it. Rest of the world, carry on !

 

[4SUPER9]

There are other possibilities on how TMC might deal with this.... Priority and speed. Just thinking out loud. What if the chargers were throttled for M3 unless they paid a premium. What if some stalls were reserved for MS?

Please, please, please. No suggestions of throttling. That defeats the whole concern we have: freeing up spots. If Model 3's are charging at a slower rate, we have to wait longer for a spot. Get everyone out as fast as possible.

 

[MiamiNole]

True - but I also think this purported "abuse" is overblown. Between my husband and I we've used approx 16 supercharger stations in the NE and mid atlantic. (our regular commutes, plus vacation weekend road trips.) I've never seen abuse. And i've only had to wait once - at a SC with only 2 stalls on a holiday weekend. People are pretty much aware of the etiquette since when someone is being a dick it impacts them - so they're not going to be a dick themselves. They also have better things to do with their time than hang out at SCs to save few bucks.

Of course I was talking about the "alleged" abuse, but didn't want my post to appear too cynical. My point was that even if it were true and SC abuse and congestion were a real thing, simply limiting the Model 3 still wouldn't solve that problem. It probably would be an added hindrance, since the Model 3 is the vehicle they are pushing to mass produce. SC access is definitely a selling point to owning a Tesla, and one would think they would want to push that across all of their vehicles. It's already been said that the SC access isn't really "free" and that it's built into the costs of their current cars. I see no reason why they wouldn't continue with that sales model.

There are other possibilities on how TMC might deal with this.... Priority and speed. Just thinking out loud. What if the chargers were throttled for M3 unless they paid a premium. What if some stalls were reserved for MS?

Supposedly the book value of the charging network on the balance sheet is now $340M. 3x (I'm rounding from memory) from last year. You can bet that a half billion dollar asset (probably next years valuation) on the books has to start generating revenue not just sitting there as goodwill. Somehow, someway TMC will translate the charging network into a quantifiable return on asset and contributing to cash flow. Has to happen. Do not care what Elon says in public.

I'm nowhere near a business major, but I would think that access to that SC network is one of the selling points of Tesla. It's not really sitting there doing nothing. One would think that the SC network will continue to drive sales of Tesla vehicles.

 

[Vince Cobelo]

Can't drive sales if the demand is higher than the supply. The network would start to depreciate in value. Offsetting the imbalance of supply and demand is that each location will rise in value because the model will be expanded by TMC and duplicated by other manufacturers. TMC knows that the net future value of the charging network is going to grow large. Maybe larger than the production side of the business (spin off). Possibilities are endless.

There is always a tipping point when you give something away and start charging for it. Could be a subscription service. Might become a limited (throttled would be very very bad for everyone). Or I could be dead wrong. But you can't carry a asset that large on the books without a return on that asset. TMC is already in talks with other manufacturers to share the network so that is something. The business model will get harder and harder to duplicate and the legacy OEMs are struggling to catch up even with over the air updates much less the charging network. Sooner or later it has to happen.

I'd bet a nickel that M3 will get a limit to SC access and can purchase virtual tokens to be used as needed. I don't think that would be a bad thing at all.

MS and M3 buyers aren't all that different. You buy the car for the cool factor mostly. Cool can be cause you are environmentally conscious or cool is cause you like gadgets. I don't think you can buy the car and justify the purchase over fuel savings because the difference between fossil and electric will shrink over time no matter what. Most things economic far apart are on a stretched rubber band trying pull them together.

 

[Bimbels]

Can't drive sales if the demand is higher than the supply. The network would start to depreciate in value. There is always a tipping point when you give something away and start charging for it. Could be a subscription service. Might become a limited (throttled would be very very bad for everyone). Or I could be dead wrong. But you can't carry a asset that large on the books without a return on that asset. Already in talks with other manufacturers to share the network so that is something. The business model will get harder and harder to duplicate and the legacy OEMs are struggling to catch up even with over the air updates much less the charging network. Sooner or later it has to happen.

I agree something will happen eventually - but I don't see that any time in the near future. (like, for the next 10 years.) I do however agree with you, and also thought agreements with other manufacturers would generate revenue. EM said at one time they'd want financial contributions from the manufacturers to service and maintain the network, and fees that would be based on their use - easy to track. Just send them the bill.

 

[Vince Cobelo]

Oh no way 10 years. Tesla is transforming the auto industry into being a technology business. Innovation and clambering for patents and profits will be measured in months and years not decades like the auto industry has enjoyed since inception. Tesla's valuation will be managed by business unit each managing it's own profit/loss as it grows.

Up to this point early adopters are caught in the net of exclusivity (brand, Autopilot, home fueling, gadgetry, speed, etc) and boy...have we benefited greatly from that. Up to this point though TMC has been a boutique auto company. When M3 is introduced that is when the rubber will hit the road for TMC. M3 will rocket launch or doom TMC dependng on how well they execute on the large scale. It will be a wild ride. M3 is potentially the Model T of the future. All things are about to change if TMC gets it right including how the M3 uses a valuable asset like the charging network.

Exciting. Musk is a visionary and he has assembled a terrific management team getting them this far. Chapter 3 is the Model 3. Chapter 1 (MS) total success, 2 (MX) so far a home run, I'm thinking Chapter 3 will be even better than 1 or 2 but different because of how it integrates into the use of intangibles like the charging network, service centers, over the air updates, etc. Forget about being charged for the superchargers. What about having to pay for over the air updates? All sorts of potential revenue streams for TMC through M3. Especially if equipped with the hardware for fully autonomous autopilot.

 

[Kbra]

This caught my attention. Regarding home charging installation, I guess I have 2 questions: 1. How much on average is the total cost of home charging installation? And 2. Will this referral program still be around by the time the Model 3 is released?

Haven't seen much talk on this forum about setup for home charging (I suppose a good number of people on this board are already Model S or other EV owners and have home charging already setup) and thought about starting my own thread on it, but figured here is as good as any place to ask.

Cost really depends how far you are from your panel, existing power in the area, panel capacity, and if you want to use the HPWC or the included portable charger. You can get a basic 50A NEMA plug installed for a few hundred, if you're near the panel. Tack on $750 for the HPWC.

And theres no way this will be around for the 3s. They wont need people pushing referrals for 3s. They will likely be inundated for a year or two with reservations from people currently waiting. They will keep making new incentives for the S and X i bet.

- - - Updated - - -

A cheaper alternative might be to:
- Have enforced parking time limits
- Slow down the Supercharger

Slowing just lets that person sit there longer. They probably don't care. It's best to charge at full speed and get them out of there.

 

[Model 3]

Do you have a link for this info? Thanks in advance.

Here is about Gen-III get free access:
http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-confirms-free-supercharging-for-tesla-gen-3-model-e/

For the "all Tesla owners" I could not find a link right now (but I know I have heard it), but at least I found a reference to a speech in Munich where he supposed to have said something like that.
https://forums.teslamotors.com/foru...eaning-free-use-supercharger-network-all-futu

But if anyone uses a bit more time I know you will find several cases in which he has said this.

 

[wk057]

Basically, if the superchargers become a hassle for me to use for my trips (people abusing, too crowded, etc) I just won't be driving a Tesla anymore on trips. Simple as that. I'll take my money to an ICE dealer and buy a decent ICE for trips, and probably eventually sell the Model S because I don't need multiple vehicles for myself. I'm not going to wait in line just because Musk wants to give everyone free power. I've got better things to be doing.

If it's free/unlimited or otherwise not pay per use/minutes/kWh beyond the first Model 3 owners (maybe reserved for those with reservations or something) then the network will become pretty much useless eventually. They'll be making way more cars than superchargers, that's for sure.

 

[Fallenone]

Thanks for the link. It was over 2 years ago. Even if EM flips now, I don't think many will blame him. Besides, these words don't prohibit a fee for selling supercharger compatibility as an option, just like the S60 years ago.

Here is about Gen-III get free access:
http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-confirms-free-supercharging-for-tesla-gen-3-model-e/

For the "all Tesla owners" I could not find a link right now (but I know I have heard it), but at least I found a reference to a speech in Munich where he supposed to have said something like that.
https://forums.teslamotors.com/foru...eaning-free-use-supercharger-network-all-futu

But if anyone uses a bit more time I know you will find several cases in which he has said this.

 

[Gen3]

That's why it's frustrating to me to see these threads over and over. It came straight from the horses mouth yet people still want to debate.

I am not debating what he said, I am interested in opinions on how to deal with or prevent abuse. Tesla could change their mind on the system before model 3 launches. If they do it's better to have the conditions laid out instead of ammending the policy after people start buying. This should include what constitutes local use and its consequences. Elon believes in good faith, but not everyone will agree on what that is unless it is spelled out.

Elon said we would have battery swaps but the market showed it not to be viable. The supercharger usage could easily change despite past statements.

The goal is to have a convenient system. Work up from there with first principles.

 

[Twiglett]

Oh how I love these discussions
On the on hand we have the folks who will be annoyed that Tesla didn't do what they said and made the superchargers free
Then we will have the folks who are annoyed because "their" superchargers get crowded
and another group that will be annoyed that the Model 3 drivers are getting in the way of who the superchargers were built for (that would be the Model S in their eyes)
and finally there are the group that predict doom and gloom because there won't be enough superchargers and the whole network will become useless.

Except not one of those groups will look at the current deployment pace of superchargers
None of them notice that it's at least 18-24 months before the initial Model 3's hit the roads and realistically 2-3 years before Model 3 gets to anything like Model S numbers.
In many other posts (including some of mine) its been worked out that the number of superchargers will likely be double by the time Model 3 is really available - and that is without the pace of SC installation changing.
Then instead of assuming that somehow Tesla will give up installing SC's and will instead get the network ready for more cars, there may be more than double the number of SC's in more locations.
Or maybe they may start doing larger ones - like the 20 station SC - that is across the road from another SC already.

Why are so many folks hoping for the worst?

 

[Model 3]

Thanks for the link. It was over 2 years ago. Even if EM flips now, I don't think many will blame him.

This was the first time he said it. I know I herd him saying it as late as last year (try some more to find a link later if no one else find it). But yes, things may change and Elon/Tesla does not have control over all possibilities. There is a EU-directive that may change things here in Europe....

Besides, these words don't prohibit a fee for selling supercharger compatibility as an option, just like the S60 years ago.

No, I do agree with you on this. I did in no way meant to imply that they could not have supercharging fee as an option, sorry if that was not clear. But I do believe that it will be included in the base-price, but can't point to Elon for that. It's just the way they removed the option and included it with the 70(D) imply that this is the route they will follow.

 

[Vince Cobelo]

Oh how I love these discussions
On the on hand we have the folks who will be annoyed that Tesla didn't do what they said and made the superchargers free
Then we will have the folks who are annoyed because "their" superchargers get crowded
and another group that will be annoyed that the Model 3 drivers are getting in the way of who the superchargers were built for (that would be the Model S in their eyes)
and finally there are the group that predict doom and gloom because there won't be enough superchargers and the whole network will become useless.

Except not one of those groups will look at the current deployment pace of superchargers
None of them notice that it's at least 18-24 months before the initial Model 3's hit the roads and realistically 2-3 years before Model 3 gets to anything like Model S numbers.
In many other posts (including some of mine) its been worked out that the number of superchargers will likely be double by the time Model 3 is really available - and that is without the pace of SC installation changing.
Then instead of assuming that somehow Tesla will give up installing SC's and will instead get the network ready for more cars, there may be more than double the number of SC's in more locations.
Or maybe they may start doing larger ones - like the 20 station SC - that is across the road from another SC already.

Why are so many folks hoping for the worst?

I don't think anyone is looking for the worst. Just for what is making sense. Have no doubt that TMC found a sweet cheap deal buying or leasing unused/underutilized parking spaces in areas that not only provide customers with safe, pleasant spots to charge but also MARKET! Superchargers are a massive marketing tool for Tesla. Who says Tesla doesn't advertise.

What I will dispute is what was once cheap will become more expensive. That others will duplicate the model. The pace of supercharger expansion will slow dramatically because it has to become more expensive unless it becomes revenue generating. When M3 hits the market all bets are off. M3 will be cranked out so fast it will be a flood if things go well. I really don't even care if they go back on their word of free charging for MS all that much. Sure it would cause pause in my enthusiasm but not for the love of the car.

 

[Fallenone]

Gotcha :wink:

This was the first time he said it. I know I herd him saying it as late as last year (try some more to find a link later if no one else find it). But yes, things may change and Elon/Tesla does not have control over all possibilities. There is a EU-directive that may change things here in Europe....



No, I do agree with you on this. I did in no way meant to imply that they could not have supercharging fee as an option, sorry if that was not clear. But I do believe that it will be included in the base-price, but can't point to Elon for that. It's just the way they removed the option and included it with the 70(D) imply that this is the route they will follow.

 

[Tesloid]

Basically, if the superchargers become a hassle for me to use for my trips (people abusing, too crowded, etc) I just won't be driving a Tesla anymore on trips. Simple as that. I'll take my money to an ICE dealer and buy a decent ICE for trips, and probably eventually sell the Model S because I don't need multiple vehicles for myself. I'm not going to wait in line just because Musk wants to give everyone free power. I've got better things to be doing.

If it's free/unlimited or otherwise not pay per use/minutes/kWh beyond the first Model 3 owners (maybe reserved for those with reservations or something) then the network will become pretty much useless eventually. They'll be making way more cars than superchargers, that's for sure.

Wow! Just wow! This level of entitlement for something Tesla gives its customers for free is mind boggling. Make no mistake; you did not pay a single dime for the electricity used at Superchargers. It is free. You just paid for the onboard charger, just like customers paid for dual onboard chargers. You are not entitled to any free energy just because you are a Model S or Model X owner. Model 3 owners won't be entitled to it either. People should remember this. Tesla is giving us free electricity as a COURTESY. They can stop giving a specific customer (or everyone) this courtesy power any time they want.

I will bet my goat, and it's milk, that Tesla will enforce an annual kWh limit per customer across ALL models, if power leeching does become a real issue. Whether (and how) they charge for power beyond that cut-off is to be seen when it comes to it. There are many ways to tackle the issue and Tesla isn't stupid to ignore this problem. They know the Supercharger usage statistics better than any of us.

Oh how I love these discussions

Why are so many folks hoping for the worst?

I don't get it either. Some people are outright insulting in their assumptions that Model 3 owners are going to be power leeches, to begin with. So much sense of entitlement. The increasing SC stations, and the decrease in charge times, will ensure the "1970s gas lines" issue doesn't become a real problem anytime soon.

What I will dispute is what was once cheap will become more expensive. That others will duplicate the model. The pace of supercharger expansion will slow dramatically because it has to become more expensive unless it becomes revenue generating. When M3 hits the market all bets are off. M3 will be cranked out so fast it will be a flood if things go well. I really don't even care if they go back on their word of free charging for MS all that much. Sure it would cause pause in my enthusiasm but not for the love of the car.

I wonder what would cause the SC installation prices to go up? Mass manufacturing more units of SC hardware would reduce their per unit cost. Also, businesses could even incentivize Tesla to install SC stations at their malls/locations to attract a growing base of Tesla customers to their business. Not to forget, each new generation of battery packs will shave off more and more from that charge time.

BTW, if Tesla is overwhelmed by the demand for SC and can't keep up, it presents an awesome opportunity to entrepreneurs around the country to open up their own "pay per charge cycle" SC stations, just like today's gas stations. All Tesla has to do is set up a licensing model to let businesses setup their own infrastructure and get it certified by Tesla to be compatible with its vehicles. These private stations will pop up wherever there is demand. Problem solved.