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Fremont delivery - car refused

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P85ATL:

I own a 2015 P90D. I base my comments on the history I've experienced, not what I've read. Here goes.

When the car was a few months old, the main 90Kw battery was found to be defective, but they wouldn't simply replace it. Despite my repeated requests, they said that was not how Tesla did it. They said it had to be shipped back to CA and be "re-manufactured" and they installed a loaner battery. Estimated time was 4 - 6 weeks "depending on how backed-up the remanufacturing process is".

It arrived 6 months later.

When installed back in my car and diagnostics run, it was found to be defective, it could not hold a charge. They hadn't run diagnostics before sending it back. It took another month and the people at the SC acting as my advocates arguing with the people at Tesla HQ, but they finally got their policy overturned and agreed to install a new 90Kw battery. I know for a fact that it's a new battery as the design had changed and to put a new battery into an older car required an adapter kit. They failed to send that kit with the battery, so there was a further delay.

So, fast forward to more recent time. Around Thanksgiving we had family visiting from Houston, and they wanted to go for a ride in the Tesla, so I went into the garage to get the car out. The drivers door handle would not extend. All the others worked. So I had to open the passengers door and go feet first over the center console to get into the drivers seat and take the car to Tesla. When I got notice that the replacement door handle was installed, I went to get the car. As I was signing off on the paperwork, the service person said "Your car was one of 5 that we replaced handles on today". Great. TMI.

A month later the airbag warning light came on. I called Tesla, and they said to get the car to them asap. They later explained that when that symbol is on, the entire airbag system is shut down. They found that the airbag's wiring harness had failed and they ordered a replacement. When it arrived, there was a problem. The harness that arrived was the correct part number, but it was the wrong harness, and it wouldn't connect. This took a couple of weeks for them to figure out and with Christmas and New Years happening, I was in a brand new loaner car for a number of weeks.

While driving that loaner, I noticed that the heated seat cushion was significantly hotter than the one in my car, and as I thought about it, I couldn't ever remember feeling much heat from the cushion. When I turned the loaner car in I asked if they had upgraded the heated seats, or could my car have a problem. They checked and said that the heated seat in my car was defective. To correct the problem they couldn't just replace the heating element, or just replace the seat cushion, but rather they had to replace the entire drivers seat. When I heard that I said "OMG -- how much would that cost if it wasn't under warranty?" The service person said "I don't know -- all the ones we've replaced have been under warranty". The important words there are "all the ones". I asked how long it would take to get a replacement and they said 4 to 6 weeks.

Realize that was in early January. We now are at the end of March, and the seat has yet to appear. And, from when my car was built and now, the stitching pattern on the seats is different. And, my car has a gray interior, and Tesla stopped making gray interiors last year, so I have no idea what's going to show up. But that's not my problem. While my lease doesn't finish until the end of September, I'm dumping it, making a large lump sum payment to pay the remaining months, and turning it in next week.

I've driven S class Mercedes for the last 20 years. I know how they treat their customers. When I spend $120,000 for a Tesla, I shouldn't have to put up with all these problems, complications and delays. Owning the Tesla was fun at first, but no more. I'm going back to Mercedes.


THIS is what is going to put Tesla down. They so totally act just like they are Chrysler or GM in the 70's. There is no parts availability. There is no sense of customer urgency. There is no sense of 'we must make it right.'

Now, that said, I've been to MB dealers like that too. I made an appointment and they had me standing there for 30 min while my service advisor was upselling some poor couple on probably everything he could. But why was I standing there?

Its the "I made an appointment for X, don't ask me why 'm there" mentality as well. If I make an appointment for recall, know it and thank me for bringing the car back in. And get to it. Don't make me wait 45 min for a ride when you know I'm coming - and certainly don't tell me that my ride left because I was not there - you know why I was not there? Because YOUR dealership had me standing around for a half hour waiting for an appointment. And you want to know why we bought the next car elsewhere?
 
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Sounds like Tesla production is the equal of Chryslers of the '70's. The problem will correct itself when Elon replaces workers with robots. Elon's biggest folly is trying to release a car without adequately road testing it. YOU, the first responders, are the beta testers. WTF? The Chevy Volt got 750,000 miles of testing before it was available for sale. Mine has held up marvelously over 66k miles, with no range anxiety and 5 star safety and reliability. The 3 is a basically a big battery connected to a big electric motor, served with a side of panache. If the Model S is only average in reliability, how reliable will a de-contented 3 be? And what if there's a major safety recall? It'll most likely bust the company. YOU GO FIRST....


Enjoy that Volt. You deserve it.
 
Go to church, light votive candles and pray, pray, pray that your car stays perfect and never has a problem requiring a part. Because -- from my multiple experiences -- it will be many months (typically 3 - 6 months) before it arrives.

Shame you had a bad experience, but don't go around acting like they're ALL bad experiences. That's simply disingenuous.

I have owned a Roadster (8/11 to 3/13), Model S P85 (3/13 to 3/17), and now Model X 100D (since 3/17). I've had minor problems, and in every single case Tesla employees were incredibly responsive, went above-and-beyond to solve problems quickly and make my life easier, and parts arrived within days where needed. Plus, loaners when needed are usually better than the car you're having serviced. You couldn't pay me to go back to BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche where I often have to wait days or a week for an appointment, service visits are pretty frequent, staff quality is sometimes great and sometimes poor, and everything is ungodly expensive.

I have heard of a few people with experiences like yours, but I've heard of far more with experiences like mine. You must have a wonderful Mercedes dealership, and I'm sure you'll be happier going back to Mercedes. Just don't assume that's true for all or even many of Tesla's owners! Consumer Reports found that 99% of Tesla owners would happily purchase the same car again, so the brutal truth is that your experience sucked but you're in a small minority.
 
Its the "I made an appointment for X, don't ask me why 'm there" mentality as well. If I make an appointment for recall, know it and thank me for bringing the car back in. And get to it. Don't make me wait 45 min for a ride when you know I'm coming - and certainly don't tell me that my ride left because I was not there - you know why I was not there? Because YOUR dealership had me standing around for a half hour waiting for an appointment. And you want to know why we bought the next car elsewhere?
Hopefully you didn’t buy the next car from the BMW dealer I used last. Exact same crud.
 
Maybe if you'd care to educate me about how exactly Telsa's body panels are "so much more complex" than any other body panel that might be fitted to any other automobile, rather than being a smartass, I'm listening.

Because nothing I see on any Tesla looks that far out of the ordinary from any other car I've ever seen. Are you talking about the aluminum Model S? Because Audi and Jaguar have extensive experience with that.

Too long and arduous a topic (that I have in fact posted about on this forum several times before). You’d have to understand Class A panels, die design, formability of aluminum (and steel) within the parameters set by Tesla’s designers (ie material thickness) and the delicate nature of it, as well be able to identify the opposing nature of Franz’s designs that have certain body panels being pulled, stretched and formed in multiple directions all at once. Not to mention the impossible radius on Model S and X hatches, that alone is a miracle that nobody has ever done in aluminum.

So, like I said - people have no idea what they’re looking at.

And no, other OEMs don’t actually have experience because they outsource their body panels. It’s the Tier 1 suppliers that know.
 
I'll just say this... We get windshields replaced all the time for our fleet. They come to our facility to do the work. The bill is usually around $150, that's including the windshield. It takes them about 15 minutes.

I think Tesla could afford to take the $500 off your bill. Unless the shop labor rate is $500 an hour, which I doubt.
Agree - $500 (leave alone $1,000) is steep for the glass! Also your insurance should have covered it ?
 
Shame you had a bad experience, but don't go around acting like they're ALL bad experiences. That's simply disingenuous.

I have owned a Roadster (8/11 to 3/13), Model S P85 (3/13 to 3/17), and now Model X 100D (since 3/17). I've had minor problems, and in every single case Tesla employees were incredibly responsive, went above-and-beyond to solve problems quickly and make my life easier, and parts arrived within days where needed. Plus, loaners when needed are usually better than the car you're having serviced. You couldn't pay me to go back to BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche where I often have to wait days or a week for an appointment, service visits are pretty frequent, staff quality is sometimes great and sometimes poor, and everything is ungodly expensive.

I have heard of a few people with experiences like yours, but I've heard of far more with experiences like mine. You must have a wonderful Mercedes dealership, and I'm sure you'll be happier going back to Mercedes. Just don't assume that's true for all or even many of Tesla's owners! Consumer Reports found that 99% of Tesla owners would happily purchase the same car again, so the brutal truth is that your experience sucked but you're in a small minority.

You have been lucky. I'm always the guy who needs to be patient for an appointment [hey, we just got a little busy]

I'm the guy they never have a loaner for.

I'm the guy who has to wait because my advisor got long on the phone.

I'm the guy whose has to stand and wait because the service advisor picks up the phone when I walk up or who tells me to wait after he picks up the phone while we are talking because he just a customer walk up.

I'm the guy who does not get the last part in the warehouse and has to wait a few days, with a few phone calls to eventually bitch at the boss at the dealership because no one follows up when it comes in.

I'm the guy they forget to replace all the parts they removed when they put it back together and I catch it on walkaround and have to wait another hour while they finish the job.

I'm the guy they forget to call when the job is done because the service advisor got called away due to a family issue.

I'm the guy who has heard every single excuse for poor customer service from multiple dealer service or sales department and they wonder why I have a bad attitude . . .
 
Too long and arduous a topic (that I have in fact posted about on this forum several times before). You’d have to understand Class A panels, die design, formability of aluminum (and steel) within the parameters set by Tesla’s designers (ie material thickness) and the delicate nature of it, as well be able to identify the opposing nature of Franz’s designs that have certain body panels being pulled, stretched and formed in multiple directions all at once. Not to mention the impossible radius on Model S and X hatches, that alone is a miracle that nobody has ever done in aluminum.

So, like I said - people have no idea what they’re looking at.

And no, other OEMs don’t actually have experience because they outsource their body panels. It’s the Tier 1 suppliers that know.

You know what? This pomposity of this answer is exactly why there's a LOT of people who can't stand Tesla fanboys.

I'll respond to your last point -- You do realize that all another OEM would have to do is call up one of those Tier 1 suppliers and tell them what they needed done? The rest of the OEMs figured out a long time ago that they don't need to do everything in-house. This is why they make money.

Here's a news flash -- a Tesla is a CAR. As much as Teslarati want it to be a movement or a revolution or some higher purpose, it's still a car. It's built EXACTLY the same as any other car is. There's nothing special about it. It's not even particularly revolutionary; electric cars have existed for over 100 years. Elon Musk put a whole bunch of somebody else's batteries into a pack and built a car around it. That doesn't make him a god. He identified an available market space, that no other manufacturer thought would be viable, and that allowed him to dominate that space. So Elon was smart enough to prove them wrong, and that's gotten everyone's attention. But the day of reckoning is coming when everyone else enters that space. If Tesla wins that battle then good for Elon. But can we PLEASE dispense of this nonsense that a Tesla is something otherworldly extraordinary that couldn't POSSIBLY be done by anyone else, because clearly no one else is a CLEVER as Tesla is. Because it makes me want to puke.

Complex automotive panel stamping is not the exclusive domain of Tesla. This comment is asinine.
 
You know what? This pomposity of this answer is exactly why there's a LOT of people who can't stand Tesla fanboys.

I'll respond to your last point -- You do realize that all another OEM would have to do is call up one of those Tier 1 suppliers and tell them what they needed done? The rest of the OEMs figured out a long time ago that they don't need to do everything in-house. This is why they make money.

Here's a news flash -- a Tesla is a CAR. As much as Teslarati want it to be a movement or a revolution or some higher purpose, it's still a car. It's built EXACTLY the same as any other car is. There's nothing special about it. It's not even particularly revolutionary; electric cars have existed for over 100 years. Elon Musk put a whole bunch of somebody else's batteries into a pack and built a car around it. That doesn't make him a god. He identified an available market space, that no other manufacturer thought would be viable, and that allowed him to dominate that space. So Elon was smart enough to prove them wrong, and that's gotten everyone's attention. But the day of reckoning is coming when everyone else enters that space. If Tesla wins that battle then good for Elon. But can we PLEASE dispense of this nonsense that a Tesla is something otherworldly extraordinary that couldn't POSSIBLY be done by anyone else, because clearly no one else is a CLEVER as Tesla is. Because it makes me want to puke.

Complex automotive panel stamping is not the exclusive domain of Tesla. This comment is asinine.

Agreed 100%.

There is NO complexity in stamping parts, PERIOD.
I used to work in aerospace so I know a little.
How complex could it be in comparison to airplane panels!
 
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Picked up my car last night from Fremont. Was in great shape other than a spot of glue or something on the backseat. They attempted to clean up but said my service center would either get it fully repaired or replace the seat. So I'm fine with that.

It is definitely dark in that showroom when you first see your car. Also seemed to be a quick thing so if you kind of let the whole experience take you through the process, you won't have much time to review the car in detail before you sign the papers. Before they ushered us back in, I asked if I could take a quick look around and that's when I noticed the glue. It's worth at least looking at everything you can, but I wouldn't spend an hour doing it.

Definitely the best car buying experience I've had. This is my 4th brand new car and they really pulled out the red carpet compared to other dealerships. I think if Tesla can at least sustain what they are doing now (2k a week M3), then I think they will be in ok shape. Of course they need to get to that 5 and 10k a week to really do the numbers, but it has been a good experience so far.
 
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Agreed 100%.

There is NO complexity in stamping parts, PERIOD.
I used to work in aerospace so I know a little.
How complex could it be in comparison to airplane panels!
To be fair, there's some complexity, which is compounded by whatever issues are associated with high volume mass production.

Articles - The War-Room Strategy for Stamping Aluminum | MetalForming Magazine

Sure, I imagine there are plenty of companies with experience, however if they are prohibitively expensive, then Tesla has to figure out how to manage things themselves in-house, which takes time and resources. I've read that's more or less what happened with SpaceX.
 
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You have been lucky. I'm always the guy...

I'm the guy they never have a loaner for.
I'm the guy who has to wait because my advisor got long on the phone.
I'm the guy ...
I'm the guy ...
I'm the guy ...
I'm the guy ...

I'll put my message in your terms:

1. I agree that I have been lucky.

2. I agree that you have not been lucky.

3. My point is, the information available to me indicates that "lucky" Tesla customers outnumber "unlucky" Tesla customers by at least 10:1, if not 20:1.

I'm not saying Tesla never screws up, or that no one has terrible stories. I'm simply saying that, as long that lucky/unlucky ratio is high enough (and I believe currently it is) Tesla will succeed, especially if that ratio goes up over time.
 
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To be fair, there's some complexity, which is compounded by whatever issues are associated with high volume mass production.

Articles - The War-Room Strategy for Stamping Aluminum | MetalForming Magazine

Sure, I imagine there are plenty of companies with experience, however if they are prohibitively expensive, then Tesla has to figure out how to manage things themselves in-house, which takes time and resources. I've read that's more or less what happened with SpaceX.
Actually, Tesla does the stamping in house.
Granted, not all stamped panels are perfect and/or to specs but they do have people to QC those, prior to moving them along for assembly.
I am talking about raw stamped panels only.
 
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It's built EXACTLY the same as any other car is. There's nothing special about it. It's not even particularly revolutionary; electric cars have existed for over 100 years. Elon Musk put a whole bunch of somebody else's batteries into a pack and built a car around it.

I appreciate that you're upset, but at least this part of your comment is inaccurate and I hope you can see that. Tesla has done quite a lot of work to improve the technology and make the car viable. Other carmakers bought battery modules that included thermal management because that's what the battery manufacturers thought worked best. Tesla bought a whole bunch of someone else's battery cells (not the same thing as entire "batteries") and designed the thermal management and many other things at the pack level. Tesla has done enough design work to make the electric car reach or exceed parity with its gasoline-powered competitors to earn hundreds of patents. Tesla has created the Supercharger network, pioneered the car that updates its firmware over the air, and many other things. Tesla has brought down the cost of the battery-electric system that powers the car (and now other electric energy businesses) by a lot.

Yes, it's a car. But it's definitely not just like any other car... if it were, it would have failed just like every other attempt to start an automobile manufacturing company in the past 70-80 years. No, Tesla is not perfect, but let's give fair credit where it's due.
 
Actually, Tesla does the stamping in house.
Granted, not all stamped panels are perfect and/or to specs but they do have people to QC those, prior to moving them along for assembly.
I am talking about raw stamped panels only.
I agree. What I'm saying that that Tesla doesn't have the same experience a Tier 1 supplier has, and could have problems because of that. I'm OK with their QC problems because they're building cars no other manufacturer builds, but I can see if others aren't.
 
THIS is what is going to put Tesla down. They so totally act just like they are Chrysler or GM in the 70's. There is no parts availability. There is no sense of customer urgency. There is no sense of 'we must make it right.'

Now, that said, I've been to MB dealers like that too. I made an appointment and they had me standing there for 30 min while my service advisor was upselling some poor couple on probably everything he could. But why was I standing there?

Its the "I made an appointment for X, don't ask me why 'm there" mentality as well. If I make an appointment for recall, know it and thank me for bringing the car back in. And get to it. Don't make me wait 45 min for a ride when you know I'm coming - and certainly don't tell me that my ride left because I was not there - you know why I was not there? Because YOUR dealership had me standing around for a half hour waiting for an appointment. And you want to know why we bought the next car elsewhere?

My experience is different, and better than my Honda (ok), Volvo (fair to poor, and expensive) and Audi (good, but I had a connection to the dealership’s owner) service experiences. I’ve owned two early-production Teslas: a Model S 85 from early March 2013 (VIN 60xx) that I sold in 2016, and a Model X P90D that I’ve had for two years (VIN 06xx). Both had issues at the start that needed to be addressed - mostly cosmetic, some wind noise requiring replacement of Pano roof and Falcon wing door seals, some panel and trim alignment, and roof and dash creaks in the S. But both have been handled very well by the service center. I have been immediately greeted upon arrival and, having emailed ahead of time, they confirm with me the llist of things to check or address - and they usually take care of something else along the way, whether a service bulletin or just something they notice needs attention due to abnormal wear. Those replaced parts all get fed back to HQ to identify improvements. They give me a loaner - sometimes new, sometimes a trade in, and I got once a Roadster for a day that was a blast. And they deliver my washed and detailed car to my driveway. I could arrange for them to pick it up as well, but I’m usually out in the direction of the SC in the morning anyway.

The cars and service have both gotten better over time. The S took about a year of periodic visits to stabilize (some of which were driven by a low-speed dent in my door by another driver in the snow on the second day I had my car, waiting for the replacement, and the designated body shop’s learning curve installing it), the X took a couple months. Now it’s just annual service visits for the X, plus a recent ranger visit to replace a 12v battery the car identified as failing. It took about two weeks too long to get it replaced because Tesla was out of stock everywhere, but I clicked the executive escalation button two days before a planned road trip and the Ranger was there the following day.

There have been occasional individual failings - eg one SC customer service guy who repeatedly failed to call with updates, but he didn’t last there long. And they’ve somehow failed to address one cosmetic issue properly. I’m on my third drivers seat, the first two having been replaced because they had folds in the seat area. The third one, installed after my 1-year service, was actually a little worse than the second (but better than the first) right from the start - I got the feeling they installed it while it still had protective wrap on it. I didn’t have the heart to say anything at the time, but I took a picture to document it. So now at the two year service they volunteered to order a fourth seat that they promised to closely inspect before notifying me to bring the car in. I love the X with or without the seat fold, but am puzzled why the feedback loop hasn’t resulted in manufacturing improvements in this case. Or maybe it’s what helped lead to the end of air cooled front seats...
 
THIS is what is going to put Tesla down. They so totally act just like they are Chrysler or GM in the 70's. There is no parts availability. There is no sense of customer urgency. There is no sense of 'we must make it right.'

Now, that said, I've been to MB dealers like that too. I made an appointment and they had me standing there for 30 min while my service advisor was upselling some poor couple on probably everything he could. But why was I standing there?
Fortunately that is NOT my experience with both Charlotte and Nashville service centers. Both have been exemplary. For example driving my Model 3 home from Charlotte (200 miles) the GPS was not working as I was told it would take up to 100 miles to correct. By the time I knew there was an issue customer service routed me to Nashville who is on central time. The confirmed an error and trucked me a Model S the NEXT morning. They kept me appraised and I now have my 3 back. I could not have asked for better service.
 
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I can assure you, ValueAnalyst doesn't work for Tesla.

And people don't become fans of $htty products. They become fans of revolutionary products. No marketing genius could have made people wait in line for a Pinto.

Well I tend to agree. The iPhone was revolutionary. But their treatment of customers didn't suck either.

No marketing genius can convince people to accept sh!t either. And there are a lot more threads like that than there are for BMW, Lexus, Acura, etc... And then think about the marketsize comparison too, and it's really scary.

It seems Tesla is largely a "hit or miss" venture when you buy from them. They have yet to learn how to be a car company with good product, rather then just a revolutionary company people blindly flock to.
 
Well I tend to agree. The iPhone was revolutionary. But their treatment of customers didn't suck either.

No marketing genius can convince people to accept sh!t either. And there are a lot more threads like that than there are for BMW, Lexus, Acura, etc... And then think about the marketsize comparison too, and it's really scary.

It seems Tesla is largely a "hit or miss" venture when you buy from them. They have yet to learn how to be a car company with good product, rather then just a revolutionary company people blindly flock to.

I just took delivery of my "product" yesterday. I can assure you, it's very very good. Perfect? No. Amazing? Definitely.
 
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