Frequent supercharging killing my battery range? Only 1800 mileage.

[M3SRdude]

Hi all, I'd love some advice here.

I have a Model 3 SR+ (well, technically it's a model 3 SR, but the software downgrade hasn't been pushed to me yet). I bought the car in May 2019 and only have 1800 miles on the car.

Previously, at 80% charge I have 192 miles. Today, at 80% charge at the supercharger, I saw only 190 miles as opposed to the usual 192 miles. I thought maybe I didn't put the slider exactly at 80%. I went back into my car and toggled the energy display in % vs miles, and at 173 miles it is 73% full, which translates to 237 miles of charge at 100%, instead of the 240 miles I expected.

I live near a supercharger, and since I have 5000 bonus miles I have to use up in 6 months, I charge almost exclusively (95% of the time) at the supercharger. I always only charge to 80% SOC when I'm at supercharger (or at home). I charge about once or twice a week. I almost always charge between 30-80% SOC. Only once did I charge to 100%, and only once did I let it go down to 19%.

I've searched threads on this site but I'm curious what others think. Is it a battery calibration issue, so should I charge it to 100% and drain to 20% and see if that fixes it? Is it a software update issue (I upgraded to 28.3.1 a few days ago)? Or is it a true battery degradation caused by frequent supercharging ?

I know it's not a whole lot of range loss at 3 miles loss, but I expected the degradation to be much slower, maybe like 3 miles loss at 10000 miles, not 1800 miles.

Should I be changing my charging practice? Leave it plugged in at night every night, or charge every few nights (keeping SOC between 80% and 30%)? Stop charging at Supercharger routinely?

I would love to hear opinions or advice.

Thanks

 

[Tam]

...I know it's not a whole lot of range loss at 3 miles loss

No it is certainly not!

Tesla guarantees your battery capacity down to 70% so enjoy what you have and don't worry about it!

Count your blessings because Model S and X do not have such a capacity guarantee.

...Leave it plugged in at night every night, or charge every few nights (keeping SOC between 80% and 30%)?...

The manual encourages you to plug in as much as possible so there's no advantage in depriving your car of being plugged in if you can help it.

If you want to minimize calibration drift, you should set your charge at 90% and not under.

...battery calibration issue...

Full charge then deplete your charge can re-calibrate your battery gauge to show that you have gained some more miles at the expense of your battery longevity because of deep discharge.

 

[widodh]

2 miles is a too small of a difference to notice. The BMS tries to to it's best to calculate the energy in the battery, but there will be a calibration issue.

Don't worry about it nor be obsessed with it. Just keep charging and driving it.

 

[Celledral]

My 100% charges to 214......soooo there's that.

 

[jrcase]

My 100% charges to 214......soooo there's that.

WOW. You probably have a bad battery if you have a SR+.that's a 26 mile loss. NOT normal.

 

[Randotec]

No. I think the difference is caused by the range recalculation based on your last driving activities

 

[KenC]

Rounding error.

 

[Tam]

My 100% charges to 214......soooo there's that.

That's the correct way to compare your ranges. Always 100% to 100% and not 99%, not 90%, not 80%...

26 miles lost out of 240EPA miles is still only 10.8% loss.

Tesla won't cover you until it's more than 30% loss.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I've searched threads on this site but I'm curious what others think. Is it a battery calibration issue

Probably.

, so should I charge it to 100% and drain to 20% and see if that fixes it?

No. Charging to 100% isn’t good for the battery and you should only do it if you need the range to get to the next charger on a trip.

Or is it a true battery degradation caused by frequent supercharging ?

Impossible to tell with such a small rounding error projecting to 100% capacity.

Should I be changing my charging practice?

Yes. Save supercharging for trips. Is it worth $2-3 saved each trip you take to the SC for free electricity versus just easily and conveniently charging at home?

Leave it plugged in at night every night,

Yes, this is what Tesla suggests in the manual.

or charge every few nights (keeping SOC between 80% and 30%)?

No, the manual says there is no need or advantage in doing this. Li-ion likes more frequent shallower charging.

Stop charging at Supercharger routinely?

Yep.

 

[Rocky_H]

26 miles lost out of 240EPA miles is still only 10.8% loss.

Tesla won't cover you until it's more than 30% loss.

I don't think that's what people are getting at. The 30% loss/70% capacity warranty coverage is for gradual long term degradation. Tesla will still cover if there is some kind of sudden hardware failure (or impending failure) within the battery. And people are just saying that if someone has a sudden 26 mile loss like that, it probably is an indication of a failure of some kind that isn't degradation.

 

[darth_vad3r]

My 100% charges to 214......soooo there's that.

Did you get the software update “downgrade” from SR+ to SR?

26 miles lost out of 240EPA miles is still only 10.8% loss.

Tesla won't cover you until it's more than 30% loss.

Especially if 20 of the “lost” miles are from downgrading the SR+ to an SR

Then it’s only 6/220 or 2.7% and back to rounding errors and calibration.

 

[heysteveh]

Hi all, I'd love some advice here.

I have a Model 3 SR+ (well, technically it's a model 3 SR, but the software downgrade hasn't been pushed to me yet). I bought the car in May 2019 and only have 1800 miles on the car.

Previously, at 80% charge I have 192 miles. Today, at 80% charge at the supercharger, I saw only 190 miles as opposed to the usual 192 miles. I thought maybe I didn't put the slider exactly at 80%. I went back into my car and toggled the energy display in % vs miles, and at 173 miles it is 73% full, which translates to 237 miles of charge at 100%, instead of the 240 miles I expected.

I live near a supercharger, and since I have 5000 bonus miles I have to use up in 6 months, I charge almost exclusively (95% of the time) at the supercharger. I always only charge to 80% SOC when I'm at supercharger (or at home). I charge about once or twice a week. I almost always charge between 30-80% SOC. Only once did I charge to 100%, and only once did I let it go down to 19%.

I've searched threads on this site but I'm curious what others think. Is it a battery calibration issue, so should I charge it to 100% and drain to 20% and see if that fixes it? Is it a software update issue (I upgraded to 28.3.1 a few days ago)? Or is it a true battery degradation caused by frequent supercharging ?

I know it's not a whole lot of range loss at 3 miles loss, but I expected the degradation to be much slower, maybe like 3 miles loss at 10000 miles, not 1800 miles.

Should I be changing my charging practice? Leave it plugged in at night every night, or charge every few nights (keeping SOC between 80% and 30%)? Stop charging at Supercharger routinely?

I would love to hear opinions or advice.

Thanks

Watch this video on YouTube. It is not the normal YouTube fare in my opinion, but is very well done, just a little over 8 minutes long. It will put your mind at ease about a lot of battery related questions

 

[ewoodrick]

Arrgghhh!!! Why can't people ever search or just review for threads? There are so many My battery is degrading out there.

No, it didn't degrade. Yes, you need to do a little research before calling your car dead.

 

[M3SRdude]

Arrgghhh!!! Why can't people ever search or just review for threads? There are so many My battery is degrading out there.

No, it didn't degrade. Yes, you need to do a little research before calling your car dead.

Yes, I did read the other threads, and thought it might be a calibration issue. But not many people drive exclusively charging at supercharger. And this "drop" in mileage occurred at 1800 mileage, which for all practical purpose is pretty close to a brand new car. I do plan to keep the car for 7-8 years and would like it to maintain as much of its range as possible, and would like to change my charging practice to prevent any potential loss of range.

 

[M3SRdude]

My 100% charges to 214......soooo there's that.

Yikes! What's the mileage on your car?

 

[darth_vad3r]

Yikes! What's the mileage on your car?

I think they were joking that their 20 extra miles were taken away from SR+ to SR.

 

[M3SRdude]

Probably.


No. Charging to 100% isn’t good for the battery and you should only do it if you need the range to get to the next charger on a trip.



Impossible to tell with such a small rounding error projecting to 100% capacity.


Yes. Save supercharging for trips. Is it worth $2-3 saved each trip you take to the SC for free electricity versus just easily and conveniently charging at home?


Yes, this is what Tesla suggests in the manual.

No, the manual says there is no need or advantage in doing this. Li-ion likes more frequent shallower charging.


Yep.

Well, I live within a mile from the Supercharger, and when I charge I walk to the stores to do some shopping. I only supercharge about 1.5 times per week, so overall it's not inconvenient. Doing all that save me..... a whopping $20 bucks a month!!

In all seriousness though, is supercharging really that bad for preservation of battery longevity? I read that's the case on older model S, but what about these newer model 3s with newer battery chemistry?

Also, what is the citation source for Li-ion likes more frequent shallower charging? Is that a generally accepted knowledge? I'm not challenging that assertion but would be interested in knowing the source is from. The video posted by heysteveh at 5:22 seems to collaborate what you said. Where did the woman in the video get that from?

 

[darth_vad3r]

Well, I live within a mile from the Supercharger, and when I charge I walk to the stores to do some shopping. I only supercharge about 1.5 times per week, so overall it's not inconvenient. Doing all that save me..... a whopping $20 bucks a month!!

In all seriousness though, is supercharging really that bad for preservation of battery longevity? I read that's the case on older model S, but what about these newer model 3s with newer battery chemistry?

Also, what is the citation source for Li-ion likes more frequent shallower charging? Is that a generally accepted knowledge? I'm not challenging that assertion but would be interested in knowing the source is from. The video posted by heysteveh at 5:22 seems to collaborate what you said. Where did the woman in the video get that from?

She got her charts from battery university and/or Professor Dahn’s various videos.

It’s somewhat general knowledge around here after you’ve seen enough charts and quotes about it from experts.

If you Supercharge a lot, Tesla can dial down your max charge rate eventually. Search for derating/throttling/nerfing. Tesla Bjørn did a video about it too. Tesla also mentions this on their website.

 

[jjrandorin]

Well, I live within a mile from the Supercharger, and when I charge I walk to the stores to do some shopping. I only supercharge about 1.5 times per week, so overall it's not inconvenient. Doing all that save me..... a whopping $20 bucks a month!!

In all seriousness though, is supercharging really that bad for preservation of battery longevity? I read that's the case on older model S, but what about these newer model 3s with newer battery chemistry?

Also, what is the citation source for Li-ion likes more frequent shallower charging? Is that a generally accepted knowledge? I'm not challenging that assertion but would be interested in knowing the source is from. The video posted by heysteveh at 5:22 seems to collaborate what you said. Where did the woman in the video get that from?

Since it sounds like you are interested in the subject, and you also mentioned that you searched the forums, did you see this particular thread that talks about battery degradation being scientifically explained? The poster of the video works in the battery industry. Watch the video that poster @Zoomit links to.

Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained

Back on topic of the thread... The manual on the car that is provided by tesla specifically says that there is NO BENEFIT in running the battery down, and then charging it back up. Its also very (very very very very) likely that you have no actual range loss, but have calculation in BMS (battery maintenance system) loss.

You said you searched the forums... so you should have seen pages and pages and pages and pages (and pages and pages and pages and pages) of posts about this topic. The "simplest" thing to do is what the company that makes the car tells you to do, if you can, and that is plug in when you get to your garage.

If you want to focus on getting that free electricity, thats up to you as well. People in the industry to design these type of batteries say that in general, more damage to the battery happens at "higher charge speeds" . Supercharging is "higher charge speeds". Its also "better" for the battery to keep it closer to 50% state of charge. No one knows what the ACTUAL long term effect on Model 3 batteries are from running it down and not plugging in, and then charging up every time you get to 20% or something. We dont know the actual long term effect from only supercharging. We just know that there will likely be some sort of measurable effect. it could be "measurable, but insignificant".

One thing I have noticed from reading most of those "pages and pages" I mentioned above. Far more people seem to have "issues" with rated range reporting when they dont plug in every day in their garage. This is not necessarily battery degradation, but rated range display inconsistencies. It still bothers people, and many more people that charge "every few days" seem to have it.

In my specific case, I have zero rated range loss in 12k miles. I charge to 90% I plug my car in every time it hits my garage (every single time, regarldess of distance driven). I drive 80ish miles a day round trip to work, and plug in when i get home. If I run errands, I unplug, go run my errands and plug back in when I get home. I use a tesla Wall Connector with a 60amp circuit and my car charges at 48 amps which is the max it can.

My 90% charge is still 279, and my 100% charge is 309 which is the best its ever been since I picked up my car (it was 306 when I picked up the car for 100% charge).

I personally believe that, because I plug in every day, and drive a "decent amount" every day, the BMS in my car has little issues calculating my rated range. There is almost assuredly nothing wrong with OPs car.

If you want to "keep the battery healthy for 7-8 years" then watch the video in that link, and make your decisions about what you are going to do based on what the science says. With that being said, its my belief that tesla has designed the battery around the fact that human beings are stubborn, and many are not going to listen to the specific instructions they put in the manual about how to charge the car.

I would imagine there will be a measurable difference at some point, but it will not be a significant difference (meaning that maybe if you supercharge for the first 2 years or something, maybe you "lose" 10 miles of range, and someone who doesnt, doesnt... to make up numbers). 10 miles means almost nothing in the range of this car over 5 years... and is no different than older ICE cars getting less gas mileage the older they get.... its just that people focus heavily on the battery because its "different'.

 

[vickh]

The manual encourages you to plug in as much as possible so there's no advantage in depriving your car of being plugged in if you can help it.

If you want to minimize calibration drift, you should set your charge at 90% and not under.



Full charge then deplete your charge can re-calibrate your battery gauge to show that you have gained some more miles at the expense of your battery longevity because of deep discharge.

1 or 2 deep discharge damage battery longevity or chronic deep discharge?