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From A Ford Raptor to Tri-Motor Cybertruck - Anyone Else?

coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
If you use your Raptor as a daily driver, more as a car and off roading is gravel roads/grass/dirt roads, or picking up bags of mulch from Lowe’s... you should be just fine. If you are using the Raptor more at its capacity, taking washboard at 60mph, jumping dunes,... I would lean to probably not.

I have a LX570 (200 series LC), the truck that has beat the Raptor in production class every year both trucks have entered the BAJA 1000. Mine is set up more for overland and technical trails than Baja, i off road it fairly hard, if I get a CT I’ll most likely keep my LX for off road. I have this feeling it is going to suck off road, but I could be wrong and won’t know for sure until they make production. I have a deposit on a CT and a Rivian S1 and have owned 2 Tesla’s over the last 6 years (4 with S, now 2 with 3) and they make great cars. From what is out there so far Rivian seems to be doing much more off road RnD, but neither trucks are close to market so who knows.
 
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Gilbertb11

New Member
Sep 24, 2020
4
3
Austin
Great Response Cole. I don't do too much off-roading (in fact, very little really). I use it a regular vehicle, tow dirt bikes, take it to the beach that kinda stuff. I really wish there was more solid information out.
I thought about the Rivian R1T but it seems like more of mid-size pickup than a full size. Also, not too certain about the Rivian itself. I'm thinking Rivian might have production issues since it's fairly new to the market - whereas Tesla has had some time to turn out decent products.

One benefit I hope to have is that I live here in Austin (where the CT will be built) and am hoping for early info on it. who knows man.
 
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coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
Great Response Cole. I don't do too much off-roading (in fact, very little really). I use it a regular vehicle, tow dirt bikes, take it to the beach that kinda stuff. I really wish there was more solid information out.
I thought about the Rivian R1T but it seems like more of mid-size pickup than a full size. Also, not too certain about the Rivian itself. I'm thinking Rivian might have production issues since it's fairly new to the market - whereas Tesla has had some time to turn out decent products.

One benefit I hope to have is that I live here in Austin (where the CT will be built) and am hoping for early info on it. who knows man.

given that I would say the CT will fit your needs probably better then a Raptor. I’ll also add why do you own a Raptor? Many other trucks would probably fit your needs much better, Raptor is a fairly specific use built truck. I’ll add though, My brother in FL has a Raptor, I’m fairly sure it’s tires have never touched dirt and never will.

my personal plan is wait until it has been out for at least a year or 2 then decide. I’m in Alaska and we don’t have any superchargers and charging infrastructure is pretty much home and RV hookups. Our Tesla’s have been “near town” cars only keeping them to about 100 mile radius from home and using the LX for longer trips and camping. So really until we get superchargers at the intersections and ends of our road system EVs are not practical for me as only vehicles up here.
 

Gilbertb11

New Member
Sep 24, 2020
4
3
Austin
Good questions and honestly, just a series of fortunate events that lead to my buying one. In short - In late 2015, having owned multiple BMWs for 10 years prior, I decided to buy a truck to haul toys, trash and wood. In looking for a used full-size truck, I came across a New 2016 GMC Sierra SLT Z71 fully loaded, Leather, tow package, and tow mirrors, for $42k. I snatched it up quickly. Then late 2018 early 2019, I went to Ford dealership to see what the big deal was about the Raptors and they offered me $39k for my GMC (had low mileage) and sold me a New fully loaded 2019 Raptor with tech package for $61k. So I essentially drove the GMC for 3 years for roughly $3k. Now, almost 2 years later, I've only got about 9k miles on my Raptor.
 
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coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
Good questions and honestly, just a series of fortunate events that lead to my buying one. In short - In late 2015, having owned multiple BMWs for 10 years prior, I decided to buy a truck to haul toys, trash and wood. In looking for a used full-size truck, I came across a New 2016 GMC Sierra SLT Z71 fully loaded, Leather, tow package, and tow mirrors, for $42k. I snatched it up quickly. Then late 2018 early 2019, I went to Ford dealership to see what the big deal was about the Raptors and they offered me $39k for my GMC (had low mileage) and sold me a New fully loaded 2019 Raptor with tech package for $61k. So I essentially drove the GMC for 3 years for roughly $3k. Now, almost 2 years later, I've only got about 9k miles on my Raptor.
Similar story as to how we went from a S to a 3. Bought the base S in 2014 for just over $70k, my wife likes it but it was just huge. When the 3 was announced put a deposit then spring of 2018 sold the S with ~30k miles for $65k (with our wall connector) and bought the LR AWD 3 Sept 2018 for ~$48k and a new wall connector for $500. We would have never bought the S if the 3 had been available at the time. Raptors are huge as well which makes them not so good off-road aside from open desert where they are amazing, and I don’t expect the CT (or Rivian for that fact) to have a suspension anywhere close to as nice at the Fox set up on the Raptor, which is really the best OEM set up out there for its intended use.
 

coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
Musk did say he would enter the BAJA race with the cybertruck
Yet another statement out of his...well... you know. I think he implied by saying he would take it to Baja. The “race” is 1000 mile stage race in the middle of nowhere, or the “loop” that is ~500 miles. For production class all front glass is removed as well as most electronics, climate control, and racing seats/harness/cage installed as well as suspension mods and the entire interior removed. There would be no charging outside of the start/finish and even there wouldn’t be superchargers. Some day? Yes. But any time soon? No way.
 

JG T3SLA

Member
Aug 5, 2018
171
224
San Francisco
I’m Swapping My 2019 Raptor for a Tri-motor Cybertruck, anyone else doing the same?

I bought a new Raptor earlier this year and also have a reservation in place for tri motor placed right after launch. I’ve been loving my modified raptor so much I might keep it to go along with Cybertruck. If reason wins out I’ll sell the Raptor when CT is available. Never owned a truck before this one. Lots of fun.
 
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StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
10,338
88,180
Maple Falls, WA
Raptors are huge as well which makes them not so good off-road aside from open desert where they are amazing, and I don’t expect the CT (or Rivian for that fact) to have a suspension anywhere close to as nice at the Fox set up on the Raptor, which is really the best OEM set up out there for its intended use.

The beauty of the Cybertruck suspension will be it's versatility for towing/hauling heavy loads while maintaining a compliant ride when unladen. The Trimotor Cybertruck has THREE times the rated cargo capacity of a Ford Raptor and twice it's towing capacity so I'm not expecting the Cybertruck to be competitive at the specialized task of desert racing. But I do think it will have a very compliant ride when unladen on city streets while still excelling at towing/hauling heavy loads. More so than any other vehicle on the market. I also think it will excel at what I can "practical off-roading", the kind of challenges you might encounter if there are damaging floods that wash out portions of roads or earthquake damage that leaves roads impassible to normal vehicles. The most capable high-speed off-road vehicles benefit from the somewhat lighter weight of a vehicle without batteries. I don't think even the ground-breaking Cybertruck exoskeleton can make up the weight difference (but I would love to be surprised).
 

coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
The beauty of the Cybertruck suspension will be it's versatility for towing/hauling heavy loads while maintaining a compliant ride when unladen. The Trimotor Cybertruck has THREE times the rated cargo capacity of a Ford Raptor and twice it's towing capacity so I'm not expecting the Cybertruck to be competitive at the specialized task of desert racing. But I do think it will have a very compliant ride when unladen on city streets while still excelling at towing/hauling heavy loads. More so than any other vehicle on the market. I also think it will excel at what I can "practical off-roading", the kind of challenges you might encounter if there are damaging floods that wash out portions of roads or earthquake damage that leaves roads impassible to normal vehicles. The most capable high-speed off-road vehicles benefit from the somewhat lighter weight of a vehicle without batteries. I don't think even the ground-breaking Cybertruck exoskeleton can make up the weight difference (but I would love to be surprised).
Air suspensions are nothing new. MB has been using them for decades. The model X and S use the same Bosch system MB uses. The CT will probably use the same or similar system MB has in the GLS and Jeep uses in the GC and upcoming GW. My ‘13 LX570 has an active hydraulic suspension with springs (which I think is vastly superior to air), over the 7 years I’ve got 80k miles on it probably close to half of that towing a 7k lb camper, and lots of time off road. Load leveling helps with cargo, it really dosn’t help towing (via bumper pull), why you ask? For > ~3-5k lbs for the most part (other than boats) you should be using a weight distribution hitch that levels and connects the tow vehicle and trailer. WD set up is difficult with auto leveling as the vehicle auto leveling can fight the WD.

A Raptor is a special purpose built f150. It is not intended to tow or haul cargo, it is intended to go fast off road, it’s soft long travel suspension is both a strength and weakness. As for a regular f150 just like other half ton trucks these days they can be had with >13k lb tow rating and >3k lb payload so not vastly inferior to the CT claims.

I’ll add in towing. Have you towed heavy weights much? As in over 5k lbs? Pulling is not the problem it’s controlling, turning, stopping,... for bumper pull (not 5th wheel) it’s really not safe to tow a trailer that weighs much more than the tow vehicle, it’s simple physics, when it goes bad the trailer driving the tow rig is a bad day.

Lastly, for off road like all other conditions tires are the most important factor. Classic example of this. I had a MB G500 before my LX. It was highly capable off road on 18” rims with AT tires, the g65 AMG (with the same 4wd system) was notorious for getting stuck in very basic situations like a slight incline with wet grass, light mud/sand/snow,... due to its 22” rims on Street tires. And for those of you who don’t off road, ground clearance is not a very important factor off road. Aside from tires: Articulation, airing down, approach/brake over /departure angles, and tire size are all arguably more important. Also in your apocalypse scenario fording water is one of the most dangerous things in a vehicle, I’ve seen 9k lbs HUMVEEs float away in as little as ~2 feet of water. The best off road vehicles that could do things like you mention have: large tires, small rims, short wheel base, soft suspension,... the CT doesn’t appear to have any of these strengths.

And from what we’ve seen the exoskeleton is not anything all that new, Honda used the same body/structure elements with their early Ridgeline trucks, it’s really just a fancy word for unibody and seems very similar to rovers “monocoque”.
 

coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
Like I said we’ve had 2 Tesla’s, great cars, when supercharging opens up here in AK we will probably buy another LR model 3. We will strongly consider a new roadster when it becomes a real thing. Heck I put in a reservation day 1 for a tri motor so I’ll probably own a CT.

The CT will be an amazing car for >90% of truck owners, it will be reliable, fast, handle great on road, haul things homeowners need to haul, with the right tires handle: winter, grass, light sand, dirt roads just fine. But it will not compete off the pavement with SWB Jeep’s, Raptor, Landcruiser, new bronco, and even the new defender (well until it breaks down:)). Or towing >8-9k lbs compete with 3/4 or 1 ton trucks no matter how much it is rated for.
 

StealthP3D

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2018
10,338
88,180
Maple Falls, WA
A Raptor is a special purpose built f150. It is not intended to tow or haul cargo, it is intended to go fast off road, it’s soft long travel suspension is both a strength and weakness.

I know. Obviously that was my point!

As for a regular f150 just like other half ton trucks these days they can be had with >13k lb tow rating and >3k lb payload so not vastly inferior to the CT claims.

Yes, but an F-150 rated to haul more than 3,000 lbs. is going to have a crappy ride unladen. My 4x4 2010 F-150 is only rated to something like 1500 lbs. and it has pretty terrible road manners when it's empty.

I’ll add in towing. Have you towed heavy weights much? As in over 5k lbs?

Yes, far more than that, for work and for pleasure. RV's, fully loaded construction trailers, firewood/rock trailers, vehicles, etc. My F-150 is only rated to 10K but I've only had it near there for short local trips at slow speeds. It would need the perfect loading to tow 8,000 lbs. comfortably on the highway.

Pulling is not the problem it’s controlling, turning, stopping,... for bumper pull (not 5th wheel) it’s really not safe to tow a trailer that weighs much more than the tow vehicle, it’s simple physics, when it goes bad the trailer driving the tow rig is a bad day.

Towing is about much more than the weight of the tow vehicle. I know you're going to think this next statement is wrong but a body on frame is not as good for towing as a truly strong and rigid unibody. The only reason body on frame has a reputation as being better for towing is no one really makes a truly strong and rigid heavy-duty vehicle. I think we will see that the Cybertruck re-writes the rules here. The reason a strong and rigid exoskeleton will be better for towing is that the frame of a body-on-frame vehicle is flexy and acts like a giant spring. This is what instigates trailer sway.

Lastly, for off road like all other conditions tires are the most important factor. Classic example of this. I had a MB G500 before my LX. It was highly capable off road on 18” rims with AT tires, the g65 AMG (with the same 4wd system) was notorious for getting stuck in very basic situations like a slight incline with wet grass, light mud/sand/snow,... due to its 22” rims on Street tires. And for those of you who don’t off road, ground clearance is not a very important factor off road. Aside from tires: Articulation, airing down, approach/brake over /departure angles, and tire size are all arguably more important.

The different characteristics you mention are not directly comparable - you need different attributes for different situations. You can't say one is more important than another - it's about having the right balance. But, yes, suitable tires are key. Truck owners tend to replace the tires if they have more specialized needs than the typical street-based tires supplied by the manufacturer can deal with. So not really sure why you mention that. Do we even know what the various Cybertruck models will come with? I didn't think so.

Also in your apocalypse scenario fording water is one of the most dangerous things in a vehicle, I’ve seen 9k lbs HUMVEEs float away in as little as ~2 feet of water. The best off road vehicles that could do things like you mention have: large tires, small rims, short wheel base, soft suspension,... the CT doesn’t appear to have any of these strengths.

I was comparing the Cybertruck's potential fording abilities to other 1/2 ton pickups where it has important advantages that we know about and yet there is plenty we don't know. For instance, we know the ride height will be adjustable but we don't know whether it will have adjustable damping or how extensive the adjustments will be if it does. Comments from Elon suggest it will. We also don't know if it will have the ability to adjust the articulation of each wheel independently. That would be huge for uneven terrain. I expect Tesla to apply their first principles thinking style of engineering to the various problems and come out with revolutionary improvements. We know Elon found the off-road vehicles of his youth in S. Africa sorely lacking in difficult off-road situations and this suggest he has a few engineering ideas of his own. I'll grant you this: If the suspension of the individual wheels cannot independently adjust on the fly then the rigid exoskeleton will be quite a disadvantage for traction on uneven terrain.

As to fording being "one of the most dangerous things in a vehicle", again, different scenarios cannot be directly compared. I have forded water well over 3 feet deep in a 1969 Nissan Patrol without any issue (the cabin was completely flooded but the vehicle maintained traction and the engine didn't miss a beat). I've also been in a crappy1980's SUV driven by a country housewife (I was hitch-hiking out of a flooded river valley because my friends car couldn't make it) that bounced and crabbed about 20 feet sideways as we dropped into the washout of the road. I felt like her rig was in jeopardy but not our lives (we had the windows down even though it was raining cats and dogs). But we crabbed up the far side of the washout without too much drama. I complimented her on her driving and she said that's where the road always washes out and just one of the things you have to deal with each year when you live in a floodplain.

On the other hand, I've been uncomfortably close to rolling 1000 vertical feet down a rocky ravine. I would say that is (by far) the most dangerous thing I've done in an off-road vehicle (traversing an off-camber road washout in the North Cascades). I've had a couple of dicey situations in Baja California as well, both in the mountains and getting to remote beaches). Water has a bad rap because so many people without the proper skills get in over their head. If you know what you're doing it doesn't have to be dangerous but it's hell on the vehicle which then needs the differentials serviced. There are places in Australia/China/Tibet/USA/South America, Northern Europe, Russia, etc. where deep water fording is how you get home through the entire rainy season. And, yes, I expect the Cybertruck to have much better than average fording capabilities vs. other 1/2 ton pickups (snorkel not needed, LOL).

And from what we’ve seen the exoskeleton is not anything all that new, Honda used the same body/structure elements with their early Ridgeline trucks, it’s really just a fancy word for unibody and seems very similar to rovers “monocoque”.

OK, no offense but your last statement shows how little you understand about the engineering design of the Cybertruck. From an engineering perspective it is crazy different from any other unibody out there. Comparing it to a Honda Ridgeline? Um, no, completely different engineering concept! There's a reason why the Ridgeline has such low haul/tow ratings - because it's a conventional unibody vehicle. The Cybertruck's exoskeleton will not be anything like that!
 
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coleAK

Member
Oct 23, 2018
904
667
Alaska
I know. Obviously that was my point!



Yes, but an F-150 rated to haul more than 3,000 lbs. is going to have a crappy ride unladen. My 4x4 2010 F-150 is only rated to something like 1500 lbs. and it has pretty terrible road manners when it's empty.



Yes, far more than that, for work and for pleasure. RV's, fully loaded construction trailers, firewood/rock trailers, vehicles, etc. My F-150 is only rated to 10K but I've only had it near there for short local trips at slow speeds. It would need the perfect loading to tow 8,000 lbs. comfortably on the highway.



Towing is about much more than the weight of the tow vehicle. I know you're going to think this next statement is wrong but a body on frame is not as good for towing as a truly strong and rigid unibody. The only reason body on frame has a reputation as being better for towing is no one really makes a truly strong and rigid heavy-duty vehicle. I think we will see that the Cybertruck re-writes the rules here. The reason a strong and rigid exoskeleton will be better for towing is that the frame of a body-on-frame vehicle is flexy and acts like a giant spring. This is what instigates trailer sway.



The different characteristics you mention are not directly comparable - you need different attributes for different situations. You can't say one is more important than another - it's about having the right balance. But, yes, suitable tires are key. Truck owners tend to replace the tires if they have more specialized needs than the typical street-based tires supplied by the manufacturer can deal with. So not really sure why you mention that. Do we even know what the various Cybertruck models will come with? I didn't think so.



I was comparing the Cybertruck's potential fording abilities to other 1/2 ton pickups where it has important advantages that we know about and yet there is plenty we don't know. For instance, we know the ride height will be adjustable but we don't know whether it will have adjustable damping or how extensive the adjustments will be if it does. Comments from Elon suggest it will. We also don't know if it will have the ability to adjust the articulation of each wheel independently. That would be huge for uneven terrain. I expect Tesla to apply their first principles thinking style of engineering to the various problems and come out with revolutionary improvements. We know Elon found the off-road vehicles of his youth in S. Africa sorely lacking in difficult off-road situations and this suggest he has a few engineering ideas of his own. I'll grant you this: If the suspension of the individual wheels cannot independently adjust on the fly then the rigid exoskeleton will be quite a disadvantage for traction on uneven terrain.

As to fording being "one of the most dangerous things in a vehicle", again, different scenarios cannot be directly compared. I have forded water well over 3 feet deep in a 1969 Nissan Patrol without any issue (the cabin was completely flooded but the vehicle maintained traction and the engine didn't miss a beat). I've also been in a crappy1980's SUV driven by a country housewife (I was hitch-hiking out of a flooded river valley because my friends car couldn't make it) that bounced and crabbed about 20 feet sideways as we dropped into the washout of the road. I felt like her rig was in jeopardy but not our lives (we had the windows down even though it was raining cats and dogs). But we crabbed up the far side of the washout without too much drama. I complimented her on her driving and she said that's where the road always washes out and just one of the things you have to deal with each year when you live in a floodplain.

On the other hand, I've been uncomfortably close to rolling 1000 vertical feet down a rocky ravine. I would say that is (by far) the most dangerous thing I've done in an off-road vehicle (traversing an off-camber road washout in the North Cascades). I've had a couple of dicey situations in Baja California as well, both in the mountains and getting to remote beaches). Water has a bad rap because so many people without the proper skills get in over their head. If you know what you're doing it doesn't have to be dangerous but it's hell on the vehicle which then needs the differentials serviced. There are places in Australia/China/Tibet/USA/South America, Northern Europe, Russia, etc. where deep water fording is how you get home through the entire rainy season. And, yes, I expect the Cybertruck to have much better than average fording capabilities vs. other 1/2 ton pickups (snorkel not needed, LOL).



OK, no offense but your last statement shows how little you understand about the engineering design of the Cybertruck. From an engineering perspective it is crazy different from any other unibody out there. Comparing it to a Honda Ridgeline? Um, no, completely different engineering concept! There's a reason why the Ridgeline has such low haul/tow ratings - because it's a conventional unibody vehicle. The Cybertruck's exoskeleton will not be anything like that!
Keep drinking the Tesla Kool aide...

Unibody: The vehicle’s body also serves as the frame, supporting the weight of the vehicle and structural load.
 

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