Tesla does NOT sell FSD. They sell a FSD Capability package with a clearly stated set of features. FSD Beta (aka: Autosteer on City Street) is NOT one of them. It is listed as Coming Soon.
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Sounds like a distinction without a difference. The customer pays now for a service (whether separate or an add-on) with no idea when they will actually get their service, whether beta or production. Customers paid money in 2017 and 5 years later they got nothing for it.
Where else in life is that normal to fork over huge money for the promise that something *might* be coming in the future and you may or may not be one of the first to receive it?
It has the be the latter, right? The purchase agreement seemed pretty clear that the full feature set was pending completion of software. Yet there seems to be a never ending stream of people coming out of the woodwork feeling like they are absolutely entitled to half finished, prototype software. It's a mystery to me why the FSD prototype code is beset by this and not other areas. Like, where are all the posts from the Cybertruck reservation holders demanding to take delivery of the pre-production prototypes that are out and about for testing? If Tesla said "hey CT reservation holders, we will pick a few of you to test our half put together prototype test mules that have no features", would we see the same reaction with some subset of people losing their minds, unable to distinguish the difference?
johnnycnote
Member
That's why I don't understand why people complain about FSD, because that's pretty much the deal you signed up for. It's clear to me that it might take years to get FSD, if ever...
This totally flippant notion came to mind, my apologies - but: pregnancy?
Onto real examples - the space race is an example. People pre-paid hundreds of thousands for the chance to be the first to go into space, with no clear idea when that would exactly happen, as testing was still underway.
I don't feel people are entitled to beta. Never said so.
Paying $15,000 for the opportunity to apply for a beta program for which you *may* or *may not* be chosen is my point.
A fool and his/her money are soon parted. A smart buyer would simply wait for that day where FSD is in production and out of beta and THEN pay for the service for which SHOULD be received soon after.
There's no reason to buy now because we've already heard Musk make wrong predictions on dates before:
Tesla CEO Elon Musk drops his prediction of full autonomous driving from 3 years to just 2
Electrek Co.
December 2015
I might be misunderstanding your points. According to the $15k FSD description posted above, "the opportunity to apply for a beta program" doesn't seem to be included. To be clear, you are not the only one who has leaped to the conclusion that it was. There have been many people who have made that same claim that winning the FSD beta access "lottery" equals getting what you paid $xx thousand for. My earlier post was really just some musings on why that might be. With that said, I totally agree with you that if you are expecting beta access, then read the FSD product description and associated caveats and then still put down $15k and encounter disappointment related to anything beta, there's not much blame left to spread around.
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One of the cool things about a free market - people can just wait and see and then spend the money if they want to.
Where you lose many people is with verbiage like "A fool and his/her money are soon parted." By insulting hundreds of thousands of people who spent money on FSD, many who did so knowing the situation, having the money to spend, wanting to invest in what they think is an excellent solution for the future of ADAS, or many other personal reasons, you damage your own argument and lose credibility.
You can express that, for yourself, it isn't a good decision. You could say "I don't see the value in FSD, and personally wouldn't spend money on it at this time." That conveys your point about your feelings on FSD's value without calling others foolish or dumb.
rpo
Member
I am on the latest version of the beta and I still cannot use it in my city because somehow autopilot STILL believes it can drive down the center turn lane for block after block. It seemingly has no programming telling it to avoid the turn lane that is clearly marked with yellow lines and turn arrows (and these are displayed on the screen as well). If I turn on autopilot, it almost immediately puts on the blinker and just dives into the turn lane even if the next turn is not for a mile. It makes zero sense, and I simply don't understand how this has not been fixed still.
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
Clearly you've never gone on a date
clydeiii
Member
Kickstarter...
I'm proud to have funded FSD! I was a backer in 2018 and I'd back it again today if I were buying a new car.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Might wanna get your hearing checked if it sounds like that to you
Well-- no.
They pay for a capability add on for their car.
They are told- an advance- the specific features they will get immediately on purchase.
They are also told -in advance- one other feature they will get in the future, and with note that when they get that feature is dependent on some things Tesla may or may not control.
Again it's pretty clear if you actually bother to read it, and it's a distinction with a pretty large difference.
Again, you are only promised production stuff. not-wide-release test software is never something you are promised or owed.
It's weird you keep insisting they're the same then ALSO claim:
See also-
Then your point makes no sense. And again seems to contradict your earlier claim you never said anyone was paying for the beta or entitled to it.
You ARE NOT paying 15k for that. You are paying 15k for the things you are actually told you will get during the purchase. None of which has anything to do with the beta.
It IS in production. With a specific list of available features. And has been for years.
There's FUTURE features too, which they tell you specifically you don't get right away- and don't suggest- at all- that you are buying early access to unfinished ones.
This is outright false.
They received all the in production features, as well as for older buyers various HW upgrades (driving computers, cameras in some cases, etc)
BitJam
Active Member
The stock market is one of many examples. In fact anytime you purchase software on the basis of features not yet delivered, you are doing this. How can anyone in 2022 still not understand this?
I have no sympathy. My guess is some people complain because they feel idiotic for making an idiotic decision even though that same decision is perfectly reasonable for many others.
To be fair, I can understand some of the frustration. There are many examples of pay-in-advance, but many do offer refunds in the event something doesn't go to plan. Tesla does not offer refunds. The Stock Market example is one where there is no refund available, but in most circumstances you can sell your investment for at least a partial refund (of course there are situations where the investment is completely lost).
There are several examples of non-refundable items/services. One I can think of is escrow for property purchases, both commercial and residential. Many times contracts require a "good faith" deposit with an offer that is non-refundable. If the deal falls through, or the buyer wants to back out, they lose the deposit. With more expensive homes and commercial properties, these deposits can be in the thousands to tens of thousands.
There are several examples of non-refundable items/services. One I can think of is escrow for property purchases, both commercial and residential. Many times contracts require a "good faith" deposit with an offer that is non-refundable. If the deal falls through, or the buyer wants to back out, they lose the deposit. With more expensive homes and commercial properties, these deposits can be in the thousands to tens of thousands.
Dude, it’s L2…and it’s beta. Can’t believe you didn’t see that mentioned a myriad of times while you were buying it…or using it. Geesh.
No argument here on that point. The buyer is stupid if he/she paid $15k and assumed they would get it that service without reading the fine print. But in the end, that buyer is better off parking that $15k in a money market fund until FSD is released from beta into production.
I understand your point, but wouldn't buying Tesla stock be a much better option and still achieve the same thing, investing into a product that you believe has a bright future? You're buying a piece of the company with a much better ROI.
