FSD and Phantom Braking on the Highway. It is Insane.

[wisamalrawi]

Since I got FSD beta and Tesla switched to a "vision only" system I have been having several random braking whether driving on interstate or state highways (2018 Model S). This happens noticeably when driving with no one in front of me. It has made highway travel an annoyance while having AP engaged as it randomly happens and speed can go from 70 MPH to 64 or even 50.

If there is a vehicle behind me and FSD/AP does phantom braking they wonder what's going on with me. If it happens more than once they get annoyed as they think I am brake checking them. I tried to clean the cameras and do a camera calibration. Nothing worked. I disabled FSD and it did not help. I disabled NoA and it did not help. I disabled Autosteer just to get tack working as even with tacc the car will randomly brake.

I sent an email to Tesla FSD beta requesting the removal of the software but honestly I don't know if I will get the software that uses radar and not a vision only system. Haven't heard back from Tesla yet. The current system is inferior on highway driving not to mention it is dangerous, consumes the tires and brakes, and makes driving less comfortable.

What would you suggest I do?

 

[IdaX]

I don't know about you, but a lot of my phantom braking seems to coincide with mirages on the road in the far distance. Took me the longest time to figure this out, as of course my meatbrain just filters those out. But the car gets very confused by them...

 

[CaptUAL]

2021 MSP = I just want regular cruise control to work without all the phantom braking. It is useless in the current state, since it annoys everyone in the car and around me.

 

[Dewg]

Since I got FSD beta and Tesla switched to a "vision only" system I have been having several random braking whether driving on interstate or state highways (2018 Model S). This happens noticeably when driving with no one in front of me. It has made highway travel an annoyance while having AP engaged as it randomly happens and speed can go from 70 MPH to 64 or even 50.

If there is a vehicle behind me and FSD/AP does phantom braking they wonder what's going on with me. If it happens more than once they get annoyed as they think I am brake checking them. I tried to clean the cameras and do a camera calibration. Nothing worked. I disabled FSD and it did not help. I disabled NoA and it did not help. I disabled Autosteer just to get tack working as even with tacc the car will randomly brake.

I sent an email to Tesla FSD beta requesting the removal of the software but honestly I don't know if I will get the software that uses radar and not a vision only system. Haven't heard back from Tesla yet. The current system is inferior on highway driving not to mention it is dangerous, consumes the tires and brakes, and makes driving less comfortable.

What would you suggest I do?

You've done everything I would suggest doing. Unfortunately vision-only is where Telsa is heading for now. Even if you remove yourself from Beta, which will return you to the previous general code, it will solve your problem temporarily. Eventually, Telsa's goal is to merge the FSD Beta stack with the AP/NoA stack, which will get rid of radar again. At least you'll have some time with the way things used to be for you. For many people, myself included, PBs have gotten much better with updates. I used to have pretty bad PBs on the general code, and when I got into Beta things did not improve much. However, as updates have been released, PBs have gotten much better for me. Perhaps updates will help smooth out your PBs as well.

The only other suggestion I could provide is that you could have a camera hardware problem - such as intermittent signal from one of the forward or side cameras - such as a loose wiring harness. You could have service take a look and check the cameras after explaining your problem. Let the know all the things you've done to mitigate the problem and just want to eliminate hardware issues.

 

[jjrandorin]

Eventually, Telsa's goal is to merge the FSD Beta stack with the AP/NoA stack, which will get rid of radar again.

Tesla transitioning its first radar vehicles to 'Tesla Vision'

Tesla appears to be transitioning its first radar-equipped vehicles to Tesla Vision

www.notateslaapp.com

Looks like that is about to start happening very soon.

 

[Supcom]

Since I got FSD beta and Tesla switched to a "vision only" system I have been having several random braking whether driving on interstate or state highways (2018 Model S). This happens noticeably when driving with no one in front of me. It has made highway travel an annoyance while having AP engaged as it randomly happens and speed can go from 70 MPH to 64 or even 50.

If there is a vehicle behind me and FSD/AP does phantom braking they wonder what's going on with me. If it happens more than once they get annoyed as they think I am brake checking them. I tried to clean the cameras and do a camera calibration. Nothing worked. I disabled FSD and it did not help. I disabled NoA and it did not help. I disabled Autosteer just to get tack working as even with tacc the car will randomly brake.

I sent an email to Tesla FSD beta requesting the removal of the software but honestly I don't know if I will get the software that uses radar and not a vision only system. Haven't heard back from Tesla yet. The current system is inferior on highway driving not to mention it is dangerous, consumes the tires and brakes, and makes driving less comfortable.

What would you suggest I do?

I suggest you keep your foot near the accelerator and don't let people tailgate you.

 

[Mardak]

Tesla transitioning its first radar vehicles to 'Tesla Vision'

Tesla appears to be transitioning its first radar-equipped vehicles to Tesla Vision

www.notateslaapp.com

Looks like that is about to start happening very soon.

I wonder how 2022.20.9 Tesla Vision highway stack compares to that used with FSD Beta so far. Although I would guess highway stack in general releases had both "with radar" and "without radar" stacks available as the same software version is used for vehicles with and without radar, so potentially the extent of the change with this latest version is deleting the "with radar" behavior and switching to always use "without radar."

But why now? Presumably this means Tesla is confident that Tesla Vision is better than the old behavior.

 

[Dewg]

I wonder how 2022.20.9 Tesla Vision highway stack compares to that used with FSD Beta so far. Although I would guess highway stack in general releases had both "with radar" and "without radar" stacks available as the same software version is used for vehicles with and without radar, so potentially the extent of the change with this latest version is deleting the "with radar" behavior and switching to always use "without radar."

But why now? Presumably this means Tesla is confident that Tesla Vision is better than the old behavior.

Elon claimed that the radar used in the older Tesla's was low-res and caused more noise than was worth it. Once vision got advanced enough, radar became a hinderance. Radar would routinely brake for overpasses and large freeway signs. Some speculate that with global supply chain problems, Tesla was having a hard time getting radar units, so they just removed them and hid the decision behind the examples I gave. Others think that Tesla should have kept radar, but upgraded to newer/better high-res models.

 

[Mardak]

Some speculate that with global supply chain problems, Tesla was having a hard time getting radar units, so they just removed them and hid the decision behind the examples I gave

Right, some vehicles had no "option" but to use Tesla Vision as there's no radar. FSD Beta 10.x versions have all used Tesla Vision even for vehicles that had radar driving on interstates, but potentially Tesla could have kept radar stack available just like they've done for regular releases before 2022.20.9.

I suppose with so many people on FSD Beta already, a good chunk of the with-radar population wasn't using it anyway, so might as well start deploying it to the rest of the fleet?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What would you suggest I do?

Post a video (taken safely by a passenger or otherwise) so people can see what you’re experiencing and assess whether it will meet their needs.

 

[pwlorraine]

I have a 2022 model 3 AWD but do not have FSD. Highway autopilot - lane and speed maintaining - has been nearly flawless for me. I had maybe two phantom braking events on an 800 mile trip from Albany to Toronto and back. I did have a phantom event outside Coopertown in a section of road with a lot of tar crack repairs but phantom braking has been a complete non-issue for me. Is this a behavior unique to FSD?

I do plan to lease FSB when the beta technology graduates. My want is to use regularly what they call EAP and to play with the city driving part of FSD.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have a 2022 model 3 AWD but do not have FSD. Highway autopilot - lane and speed maintaining - has been nearly flawless for me. I had maybe two phantom braking events on an 800 mile trip from Albany to Toronto and back. I did have a phantom event outside Coopertown in a section of road with a lot of tar crack repairs but phantom braking has been a complete non-issue for me. Is this a behavior unique to FSD?

I do plan to lease FSB when the beta technology graduates. My want is to use regularly what they call EAP and to play with the city driving part of FSD.

Videos are rarely posted so it is hard to assess the impact of TeslaVision. No one has ever been able to compare them as far as I can tell. Obviously perceptions are very subjective.

 

[pwlorraine]

Is the FSD phantom braking problem the same as the autopilot only one? Or does having FSD open more occurrences possibly because it is predicting other car behavior (someone about to enter your lane for example) and is taking action to avoid a threat autopilot alone doesn’t see?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is the FSD phantom braking problem the same as the autopilot only one? Or does having FSD open more occurrences possibly because it is predicting other car behavior (someone about to enter your lane for example) and is taking action to avoid a threat autopilot alone doesn’t see?

It depends on a few things:
1) Is your car using vision only?
2) Where are you using Autopilot?

Autopilot is generally for freeways. In that situation, as far as we know, there are just two possibilities: radar+vision, and TeslaVision (cars without radar, or cars with radar, running FSD Beta). It allegedly doesn’t matter if you are using FSD Beta; it is supposedly running the same (vision only) code when not in the FSD advanced visualizations state (generally this is only on freeways, or any place regular Autopilot is fully functional and “permitted” for use).

Now, if you are using Autopilot on surface streets, there are presumably three possibilities:

1) Vision + Radar control in vehicles with radar and not running FSD Beta
2) Vision Only control
3) Vision Only control using FSD Beta code (shown in advanced visualizations)

There may also be additional possibilities and combinations when it comes to HW2.5 and HW3 vehicles. And some of the above may go away if Tesla actually eliminates use of radar.

 

[DrChaos]

I wonder how 2022.20.9 Tesla Vision highway stack compares to that used with FSD Beta so far. Although I would guess highway stack in general releases had both "with radar" and "without radar" stacks available as the same software version is used for vehicles with and without radar, so potentially the extent of the change with this latest version is deleting the "with radar" behavior and switching to always use "without radar."

But why now? Presumably this means Tesla is confident that Tesla Vision is better than the old behavior.

I have a 2022 with basic Autopilot. On the out of the factory software version I had one mild phantom braking incident, but after an update, and through many more, I have had zero. This is on SoCal freeways in clear weather.

Maybe going into FSD beta downgrades the highway stack as well?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Maybe going into FSD beta downgrades the highway stack as well?

Other than it not being entirely up to date (right now probably a couple months behind!), it does not sound like it would, based on a variety of statements that have been made on this.

 

[newberry94005]

my phantom braking seems to coincide with mirages on the road in the far distance. Took me the longest time to figure this out

This!! I notice every time there is a "car" displayed on the screen in front of me when there might be one way off in the distance. This happens a lot when cars are on the "horizon" of the vision system. I've heard them talk about the difficulty of predicting distance when you only have a very small amount of pixels for reference.

Is the FSD phantom braking problem the same as the autopilot only one?

I have two Teslas. One in FSD Beta. The other in Public builds.

The only phantom braking they share is the one I referenced above with the "car" showing on the display when it's having a hard time seeing the distance of a far off car. Other than that, FSD Beta build, has more phantom braking events than public build Autopilot (with FSD purchased but not installed Beta software).

Maybe going into FSD beta downgrades the highway stack as well?

I don't know if downgrade is the right word but it's definitely different in vision/display only. In my car with Beta installed, it still "sees" everything like on city streets but it's behavior is identical to my other car with regular build software on the highway. It's very noticeable because the car with Beta will display all cars around it unlike the public build right now.

 

[CoolBuddy]

I have a 2018 Model 3 Performance with a radar unit. Before I joined the FSDBeta, AP/TACC would occasionally brake on two lane country highways (one lane each direction, clear markings, state routes) in Ohio, but it was rare enough and predictable enough that it was only a very minor annoyance.

When I joined the FSD Beta in October, it turned off the radar and went to pure vision and I have experienced braking every 2.5 to 3 miles on average on these types of roads. That is way too frequent for comfort. I even had a few cases of my car essentially brake checking a car following too closely. I had tried disabling FSD with the slider when I first experienced it and it was no better. I'd drive for a couple minutes then suddenly feel myself lurch forward as my car braked.

Forever the optimist, procrastinator, or both, I have not opted out of FSD Beta and have just hoped the next release would fix the issue and it never has. I had one drive a couple releases ago where I noticed it braked only once or twice and was thrilled only to be disappointed on every drive since.

So a few weeks ago, I got an aftermarket suspension installed by a local garage and after a lot of advice on TMC, had the garage do the alignment instead of Tesla (saving me a 75 minute drive each way and about $150). The advice I went with was to turn off all AP functions for 30+ miles afterwards and let the car go into a deep sleep for 5 to 6 hours. I also calibrated the cameras after this point. So during the camera calibration, I took this common route from Norwalk, Ohio to Tiffin and was driving manually while the cameras calibrated. After about 10 or so miles, it reported the calibration was complete and at the next stop sign, I threw the car into P and quickly enabled everything. Well, everything except for FSD. It said additional camera calibration was needed and it was at 80%.

From this point forward, the car had zero. ZERO. brakes. It throws up one or two FCW beeps on this route, but recovers fast enough that it doesn't brake. I've now driven with FSD off for a few weeks and can report it is as good as it was with RADAR before signing up to FSD Beta.

FSD Beta still sucks with braking though. I tried to turn the slider on after calibration was complete and the braking returned. I took the slider to off and it went away again.

TL;DR There is hope that they have got this figured out/there is a way to resolve it. My experience when switching to vision from RADAR in Ohio has been terrible until I performed these steps and drove with FSD disabled:
1. Alignment by non-Tesla garage (probably not required)
2. Disable all AP features.
3. Drive for 30+ miles
4. Let the car go into a deep sleep (overnight with no interactions or sentry mode)
5. On the next drive, start a camera calibration
6. When camera calibration is complete, but before FSD camera calibration is done, enable all the other AP/TACC features again and drive in AP.

 

[Dewg]

I have a 2018 Model 3 Performance with a radar unit. Before I joined the FSDBeta, AP/TACC would occasionally brake on two lane country highways (one lane each direction, clear markings, state routes) in Ohio, but it was rare enough and predictable enough that it was only a very minor annoyance.

When I joined the FSD Beta in October, it turned off the radar and went to pure vision and I have experienced braking every 2.5 to 3 miles on average on these types of roads. That is way too frequent for comfort. I even had a few cases of my car essentially brake checking a car following too closely. I had tried disabling FSD with the slider when I first experienced it and it was no better. I'd drive for a couple minutes then suddenly feel myself lurch forward as my car braked.

Forever the optimist, procrastinator, or both, I have not opted out of FSD Beta and have just hoped the next release would fix the issue and it never has. I had one drive a couple releases ago where I noticed it braked only once or twice and was thrilled only to be disappointed on every drive since.

So a few weeks ago, I got an aftermarket suspension installed by a local garage and after a lot of advice on TMC, had the garage do the alignment instead of Tesla (saving me a 75 minute drive each way and about $150). The advice I went with was to turn off all AP functions for 30+ miles afterwards and let the car go into a deep sleep for 5 to 6 hours. I also calibrated the cameras after this point. So during the camera calibration, I took this common route from Norwalk, Ohio to Tiffin and was driving manually while the cameras calibrated. After about 10 or so miles, it reported the calibration was complete and at the next stop sign, I threw the car into P and quickly enabled everything. Well, everything except for FSD. It said additional camera calibration was needed and it was at 80%.

From this point forward, the car had zero. ZERO. brakes. It throws up one or two FCW beeps on this route, but recovers fast enough that it doesn't brake. I've now driven with FSD off for a few weeks and can report it is as good as it was with RADAR before signing up to FSD Beta.

FSD Beta still sucks with braking though. I tried to turn the slider on after calibration was complete and the braking returned. I took the slider to off and it went away again.

TL;DR There is hope that they have got this figured out/there is a way to resolve it. My experience when switching to vision from RADAR in Ohio has been terrible until I performed these steps and drove with FSD disabled:
1. Alignment by non-Tesla garage (probably not required)
2. Disable all AP features.
3. Drive for 30+ miles
4. Let the car go into a deep sleep (overnight with no interactions or sentry mode)
5. On the next drive, start a camera calibration
6. When camera calibration is complete, but before FSD camera calibration is done, enable all the other AP/TACC features again and drive in AP.

Great write up! I'll be curious how things go with the latest update, which is being reported as disabling RADAR for all vehicles (even non FSD Beta) and moving to Tesla Vision only. Turning FSD Beta off should still be vision-only. If your experience is unchanged, then the PBs are in the FSD Beta stack and not in the AP/NoA stack, and is something that can be resolved with software updates.

 

[CoolBuddy]

Turning FSD Beta off should still be vision-only

This is correct. I verified as soon as I had the chance that the top speed allowed was 85 MPH on a divided highway. This is consistent with still being vision-only. Radar would have been 90 MPH max speed.