FSD Beta 10.12

[AlanSubie4Life]

I fear we are approaching that danger zone that experts have warned about where FSD is just good enough

Yeah, nowhere near good enough.

I have long been watching FSD Beta videos where the car proceeds when there is an absence of information, it's clearly not safe, or when views are obstructed

It definitely suffers from "out of sight, out of mind" syndrome.

Yeah knowing what you cannot see is a key human capability that is quite easy for humans. FSD of course must have it, even as an L2 system, IMO. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that FSD doesn’t have this ability, or at least any such ability is paired with an extremely short memory.

Depending on luck, it may not need this ability to get to 90% on Chuck’s turn, but it certainly does need it to be safe in general and get to an actual acceptable success rate of ~100% as Elon has promised (this limitation and the potential fatal consequences is demonstrated in at least two of the recent videos).

It is hard to tell from the videos so far of 10.69 evaluation whether there is any progress here.

 

[diplomat33]

Yeah, nowhere near good enough.

I agree. But there are definitely some FSD Beta testers who are acting like it is.

 

[swedge]

I have a question for other beta users. I am fairly new to beta, and still learning when to trust the car.

One situation I wonder about is one particular lane change into a left turn lane. In this case, there is a concrete curb along the through lane which then bends left to continue along the left side of the left turn lane. It is essentially a curb on a concrete island.

When the car turns into this left turn lane, it appears to be turning too close, and the rear left wheel might clip the curb. Hopefully it would clear the curb, and it is just my viewing position and driving habits that makes me perceive it as too close. But I've not waited to see, and just steered the turn a bit wider.

So, I wonder what others' experience is with this sort of maneuver. Does it clip curbs sometimes?

My first thought when I started with beta was feeling sympathy for our high school social studies teacher who also gave us driver training, back in the days when public schools in Calif did such things. Mr McMahon would sit there calmly, with only an extra brake peddle to save us from our mistakes. Maybe his time serving in the Korean War is where he trained his nerves of steel.

Like we did when we first got the basic (non beta) FSD, I continue to gradually get more comfortable with beta and I let it complete more moves on which I initially didn't trust it and intervened. Of course I've found several spots it just does not handle well, and I just drive those manually. I reported those and see no reason to watch it screw up over and over. But the possibility of dinging a wheel is still too scary for me to just see what happens...

SW

 

[JulienW]

.....Does it clip curbs sometimes?.....

YES, when in doubt drive manually.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Does it clip curbs sometimes?

Assume it is going to hit the curb until it is safely in the rear view. (I’ve never had it happen, but I just routinely disengage literally all the time whenever FSD deviates from the path I am steering.). Hands on the wheel, always steer the corners yourself and don’t put up with any garbage.

 

[diplomat33]

Does it always do this now? If it goes away in a few days I would guess this was the nav system thinking there was heavy traffic in that block (even if it had cleared) and plotting a detour. Look for the red lines on the map?

I tried it again but set the nav to reroute if it saves 30 mn and the nav still rerouted. The nav planned the reroute when I entered the destination, so it was not a last minute thing. I drove manually straight and when I got past the left turn, the nav told me to turn around and when I drove past the "gap", the nav told me to drive straight again. So I think there is definitely a "gap" in the map that is making the car think that Chamberlain St is not driveable at that spot. I don't think it is a reroute to save time due to traffic.

 

[thewishmaster]

Does it clip curbs sometimes?

I was looking for the clip I saw a week or two ago where it clips a curb on the right-hand side, and instead found an entirely different example where it clips a curb on a left-hand turn:

I personally still don't feel comfortable on some left turns where there's a median curb sticking out. Sometimes it feels like it gets too close.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I was looking for the clip I saw a week or two ago where it clips a curb on the right-hand side, and instead found an entirely different example where it clips a curb on a left-hand turn:

I personally still don't feel comfortable on some left turns where there's a median curb sticking out. Sometimes it feels like it gets too close.

Every one of these clips is pure gold.

I intervene on so many corners. I have no idea why it likes to turn so quickly - basically it means whenever you start a turn close to the curb (left or right) you are at high risk.

 

[drtimhill]

I tried it again but set the nav to reroute if it saves 30 mn and the nav still rerouted. The nav planned the reroute when I entered the destination, so it was not a last minute thing. I drove manually straight and when I got past the left turn, the nav told me to turn around and when I drove past the "gap", the nav told me to drive straight again. So I think there is definitely a "gap" in the map that is making the car think that Chamberlain St is not driveable at that spot. I don't think it is a reroute to save time due to traffic.

Yeah looks like a map error.

 

[Twiglett]

I have a question for other beta users. I am fairly new to beta, and still learning when to trust the car.

Lesson #1 - Never, ever trust the car
Don't let yourself be fooled by the youtube "influencers"
FSDb is spectacularly better than the versions even two years ago, but I think as its improving the difference between "normal" driving, where it does really well and the "corner cases" is getting more and more pronounced.
It can lull you into a false sense of security (trust?) thinking its way more capable than it is. Then it does something insanely stupid that a fifth-grader playing GTA wouldn't even consider.
Don't trust it - ever.
Just be fully aware of what it does well, and what it doesn't.
Full disclosure - I was ready to give up but am in this for the long haul and waiting for the next release like the rest of us tech junkies

 

[Tronguy]

Lesson #1 - Never, ever trust the car
Don't let yourself be fooled by the youtube "influencers"
FSDb is spectacularly better than the versions even two years ago, but I think as its improving the difference between "normal" driving, where it does really well and the "corner cases" is getting more and more pronounced.
It can lull you into a false sense of security (trust?) thinking its way more capable than it is. Then it does something insanely stupid that a fifth-grader playing GTA wouldn't even consider.
Don't trust it - ever.
Just be fully aware of what it does well, and what it doesn't.
Full disclosure - I was ready to give up but am in this for the long haul and waiting for the next release like the rest of us tech junkies

Note: Am now dog-piling on. Twiglett's right in everything said above. For verisimilitude:

• On a 20-mile commute on local and major local roads, I'll hit the record icon anywhere from 10 to 20 times.
• 80% of those are for just being dead stupid. Getting into a left-turn-only or right-turn-only when one wants to go straight. Jerking madly on a left turn. On a left turn, getting on the way onto the right side of the lane one is in and then canting over, thereby blocking all traffic from passing one on the right. You didn't like phantom braking? You'll get phantom braking and phantom turns where the car dodges invisible other cars.
• 15%-18%: If one lets the car do what it wants, one will either scare the heck out of the other drivers on the road, block traffic, or bend metal.
• 2%-5%: The car does seriously scary things. Today, it was in the middle lane of a 50 mph 3-lane, divided highway, with stoplights and decided to merge into the car directly to the left. Seriously. About two months ago, traffic light went green for a left turn and, crossing the road on the left, was a parent pushing a baby carriage. The car didn't look like it was stopping so I jammed the brakes.
• My personal hate: On a non-striped road with severe hills when approaching the crest of a hill, it'll drive in the middle of the road. Unless it spots opposing traffic and moves over to miss that traffic. Scary as all get-out.

Thing is: Once or thrice a week the car will drive beautifully, not try to cause an accident, won't jerk madly, and do so for miles and miles. Then it will do something stupid, at random. YOU CAN NEVER RELAX when the Beta is running because the mistakes are at random and Not when one expects them. As the release notes state: The car will do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Most of the time the driving's not bad. It does a decent job in traffic, follows striped roads just fine. Currently, limited access highways use the old-timey FSD (you can tell because all the colors on the display go away), so that's.. somewhat safer. Next release is supposed to merge with the FSD-b on locals; no idea how good/bad that'll be.

Be careful out there and Do No Stunts.

 

[swedge]

...found an entirely different example where it clips a curb on a left-hand turn:

Ouch! Well I guess my concern was well founded. So I will continue to intervene, and report it a few times. When it comes close, I am too busy to watch the camera window, but maybe a dash cam clip will let me see how close it comes.

Thank you for finding and sharing that, you probably saved my wheel from getting dinged. I've scrapped the curb on the right side a couple times while parallel parking, and prefer not to damage the left side as well. No need for symmetrical damage! ;-)

SW

 

[jabloomf1230]

Out of boredom with receiving no new firmware, I decided to switch FSD beta from Chill to Assertive. I found the behavior mostly unchanged except for the level of acceleration after being behind a turning vehicle. I've always felt Chill was too sluggish in reaching the speed limit in this circumstance, but Assertive was more like the way I drive without FSD. It may be my imagination, but left and right turns also seem more human-like in Assertive mode.

 

[Dewg]

Out of boredom with receiving no new firmware, I decided to switch FSD beta from Chill to Assertive. I found the behavior mostly unchanged except for the level of acceleration after being behind a turning vehicle. I've always felt Chill was too sluggish in reaching the speed limit in this circumstance, but Assertive was more like the way I drive without FSD. It may be my imagination, but left and right turns also seem more human-like in Assertive mode.

The only reason I stay in Chill mode is for lane changes. I need to test different modes to see how they work once the next firmware rolls out. I just don't want it changing lanes constantly looking for a faster lane (especially near my where city streets routinely have 3-4 lanes).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

All three modes tailgate equally well for me. Need a follow distance setting of 15.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

All three modes tailgate equally well for me. Need a follow distance setting of 15.

And, a mode which is *actually* assertive and smooth while maintaining spacing. Who knows when this will happen though. Just based on experience, this seems impossible.

 

[thewishmaster]

The only reason I stay in Chill mode is for lane changes. I need to test different modes to see how they work once the next firmware rolls out. I just don't want it changing lanes constantly looking for a faster lane (especially near my where city streets routinely have 3-4 lanes).

Does it actually make a difference? I’ve been on “assertive” since the day they added the feature and it’s still too timid in most occasions. It doesn’t change lanes for speed reasons unless there’s a huge speed differential (IMO). Maybe everyone here drives too aggressively

 

[drtimhill]

Out of boredom with receiving no new firmware, I decided to switch FSD beta from Chill to Assertive. I found the behavior mostly unchanged except for the level of acceleration after being behind a turning vehicle. I've always felt Chill was too sluggish in reaching the speed limit in this circumstance, but Assertive was more like the way I drive without FSD. It may be my imagination, but left and right turns also seem more human-like in Assertive mode.

I switched to Chill mode during the recent heat wave, but sadly it didn't cool down the cabin any faster than usual

 

[jabloomf1230]

I switched to Chill mode during the recent heat wave, but sadly it didn't cool down the cabin any faster than usual

Perhaps you should have Dr. Munoz check your car's HVAC system.

 

[GalacticHero]

Mine did a new scary thing yesterday. It was stopped at the rightward of two left turn lanes waiting for a green arrow. Then out of the blue it just decided to go. I quickly slammed the brakes. Thankfully, the car behind was watching the light and not me, but I’m sure I gave them a wtf moment. It shocked me as I’ve never had it totally misread a stoplight before.