Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Do "not bad" drivers regularly get honked at? I guess it all depends on the frame of reference. It's way better than Smart Summon.
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FSD Beta 10.12
- Thread starter EVNow
- Start date
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Agreed, it is neither.
Assertive is probably a better word for what we’re talking about, but in any case aggressive/assertive driving and defensive driving are not mutually exclusive. A key characteristic of defensive driving is anticipating incorrect behavior by other drivers.
But yeah, neither.
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Where I live old ladies get honked at for driving under the speed limit, so I'm not that thin skinned to honking.Do "not bad" drivers regularly get honked at? I guess it all depends on the frame of reference. It's way better than Smart Summon.
Lee interview with James on 10.12 changes. Starting at 20 minute mark.
And routinely FSD Beta will do exactly that - it slows down and becomes "timid" (for lack of a better word) when other cars make aggressive lane changes, or sudden right turns in front of you, etc. An aggressive driver may just swerve around the right turning car, not really slowing down much. That would, in turn, cause the people in the next left lane to alter their behavior for the guy swerving into their lane, which creates ripples of minor course corrections. It's also where humans tend to get into accidents. Does it suck for the guy behind me when my car slows down rapidly in response to the guy turning right in front of me? Yes. Does it suck for the guy in the lane next to me when my car doesn't swerve out into their lane to "get around" the guy in turning? Nope.
Also, try really hard to not get annoyed when your car does something you wouldn't do. I think so many people are frustrated with FSD Beta because the car doesn't drive the way *they* do. It's not going to drive the way you do. As I mentioned in another thread, I got honked at recently when FSD Beta was making a left turn in the #2 left turn lane. The car handled the turn exactly as it should have done, turned into the #2 lane. However, the guy next to me in the #1 left lane wanted to be in the #2 lane when he completed his turn, which is incorrect - he needed to complete his turn into the #1 lane. So he honked at me for preventing him from doing what he wanted (he was definitely a Type A / Aggressive driver). FSD Beta would not work well for him.
Yesterday morning there was a Model S in the #1 lane (4 lanes) at an intersection (red light), and a freeway onramp directly past the light on the right. The light turned green and the Model S floored it and cut across 4 lanes of traffic in the middle of the intersection to get onto the on-ramp because he didn't want to wait his turn in the #4 lane with everyone else. FSD Beta would not work for him either.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
That’s reacting, not anticipating. Not defensive driving.
The better course of action is to anticipate so no direct reaction is necessary. E.g., no need to slow down when that car turns in front of you (you already slowed down because you knew it would happen); no need to react to someone not yielding to oncoming traffic (this one is usually easy to see coming well in advance), etc.
Looking forward to when FSD can do this and start bringing down the not-at-fault accident rate (a key metric).
I agree, but many people here would disagree with you. "Stupid FSD slowed down for no reason!" When in fact, FSD was anticipating that a car was going to make a sudden right turn and slowed down to compensate. However, the car didn't turn right. So, who's right and who's wrong? Is it better that FSD anticipate and start slowing for a car it thinks make be making a sudden right turn? That's going to piss some people off. Or is it better to only react when the person is actually making the sudden right turn, but then have to brake a harder? That's going to piss some people off.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
How many new teenage drivers get honked at if they don't have a "student driver" placard on the car? FSD is improving but is still cautious and slow, exactly what I expect it to be like.Do "not bad" drivers regularly get honked at? I guess it all depends on the frame of reference. It's way better than Smart Summon.
The ironic thing is I see so many people protesting that they "have to drive like a grandma" to get a good safety score to try and get in the FSD beta program, but if they get in they'll be driving like a grandma!
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I would argue that the bigger problem that upsets people in this case is that it uses the brakes (!!!) or heavy regen to slow down. Because it is inexplicably not anticipating or reacting appropriately or fast enough. Needs to react fast, so it doesn’t need to make any sudden changes.
No one wants to be jerked around.
Something about a head, a nail, and hitting it comes to mind.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I use accelerator override a lot and set target speed high to avoid this problem. Just have to be careful on sharp corners, since the planner likes to slalom if the speed is too high.
Also keeps me firmly engaged in the driving task.
Again, you and I agree on many points. Anticipating is a human intuition, and as such it's sometimes wrong. Computers don't have human intuition (or "gut feeling"). You and I may have a "gut feeling" that the guy on your left "really wants to be in my lane, and is likely going to try to cut me off". And in many cases, it happens. The computer doesn't know that, and it's likely going to be a long time, if ever, that a computer has enough AI to simulate human intuition. So how will FSD handle that case? The guy will speed up and cut you off, as you "knew he would", and FSD will brake hard in reaction.
Again, FSD is not going to drive the way you do. I've accepted that, and my experiences with FSD are mostly positive. The more I use it, the more I understand how it thinks and I've adjusted my expectations to how it drives.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
This is a problem. Won’t be acceptable.
Human intuition is based on subtle cues provided by other drivers’ speed/acceleration/jerk profile, their historical use of signals, their ability to maintain their lane, their wheel position, etc. There’s no reason to think that a computer could not (at some point) incorporate these cues and make judgements about future behaviors and position the vehicle accordingly out of harm’s way.
For now I’d settle for it sensing and responding to other vehicles in a timely manner though. No need for anticipation there. Have not yet optimized the case with no anticipation/intuition.
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To be fair, most of the honking is of the "hurry up" type not the "wtf are you doing?" type.Do "not bad" drivers regularly get honked at? I guess it all depends on the frame of reference. It's way better than Smart Summon.
Remember FSD = Fussy Student Driver
clydeiii
Member
Right, which is why we say that AP DOES count towards your score...it counts positively. The best way to raise your score is drive 100% of the time in AP.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Anticipating is a pretty tall order for FSD or any AI system. Not only do humans often have trouble but it's depending on regional driving styles and even time of day. I wouldn't expect that from any driving system any time soon.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Neither do I. But as I said, have to start with actually doing a good job without incorporating anticipation. Currently it’s unacceptable for any passenger.
Define "timely" in a way that's acceptable to all people. What I consider "timely" is not the same as what you may consider it.
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