I don't think it reads those yet. Just like it can't handle no turn on red signs yet.
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FSD Beta 10.12
- Thread starter EVNow
- Start date
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
Took my first drive on 10.12.2 tonight in my 2017 Model 3, driving about 20 miles around West LA. Overall it felt slightly better than the previous version, but only incremental. More assertive/confident, but occasionally still jerky. It did fix a particular problem near my home where the previous versions would always swerve into a right-turn lane when they were supposed to go straight; this time it handled that spot perfectly.
But there were a few glitches. In one spot it needed to merge left to get into a left turn lane, but a car was blocking; FSD decided to accelerate to try to get ahead of the other car, even though there was clearly not enough time/space to do so. I had to take over, brake, and pull in behind the other car. In another spot there were two left-turn lanes; I was in the left one, another car in the right one. When our light turned green the other car started swerving into our lane, but FSD didn't take any evasive action and I had to slam on the brakes (and honk). And several instances of moderate phantom braking, including when there were cars right behind me. In my experience, Tesla doesn't yet seem to factor the possibility of being rear-ended into its calculations.
Looking forward to putting more miles on this build, and also to getting it on my new Model Y! (99 safety score after a few weeks of ownership.)
But there were a few glitches. In one spot it needed to merge left to get into a left turn lane, but a car was blocking; FSD decided to accelerate to try to get ahead of the other car, even though there was clearly not enough time/space to do so. I had to take over, brake, and pull in behind the other car. In another spot there were two left-turn lanes; I was in the left one, another car in the right one. When our light turned green the other car started swerving into our lane, but FSD didn't take any evasive action and I had to slam on the brakes (and honk). And several instances of moderate phantom braking, including when there were cars right behind me. In my experience, Tesla doesn't yet seem to factor the possibility of being rear-ended into its calculations.
Looking forward to putting more miles on this build, and also to getting it on my new Model Y! (99 safety score after a few weeks of ownership.)
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Please, stop this nonsense. My avatar is my avatar; it has to be something. I owned two Subarus over 18 years. Then Subaru stopped making cars I wanted to buy. They are great cars for their application. Teslas are too.
I love my car. It’s a Performance Model 3. I have autocrossed it, and driven 37k miles in it over nearly four years. I know what it can do. I much prefer it over my WRX STi (which I unfortunately did not hold onto since it is worth a lot more now, lol).
I don’t even know what this means. What is a “fan of Tesla?” How would one define that? Knowledgeable about Tesla? I just have no idea what a Tesla fan is.
Please check my post history. I also have a small financial stake in Tesla so I would like them to be successful (though I don’t think FSD is particularly important for that success, thankfully).
I don’t know what this statement means, for sure. Beta seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Obviously it is pretty easy to ignore me on this forum; that is up to you.
If you have a specific issue with what I said, rather than making unrelated (and unsupported) comments about my motivations and my avatar, please let me know what you take issue with so we can stay on topic.
Waiting to see how the next day or two go here, see how many more strikes we see…don’t want any of those (though they may reset them…arrgghh…they should not…).
Unjustified viewpoint of @AlanSubie4Life. One of the most informative contributors around these parts.
scubastevo80
Member
I received 2022.12.3.20 this morning and the ride was scary. First stop side about 1/4 mile from my house (T-junction) and it abruptly braked which it never did before. Started making a left into the intersection and then paused halfway through - thankfully no cars. Hard tight left going downhill off an onramp (turn should be taken 15mph or less) and I had to take over or it would have hit the curb/guardrail. In Newark going down a side street towards my parking garage and I had to take over or it would have ran a stop sign at 20 and plowed into an intersection. Definitely a two steps back update for the first drive, but hopefully it gets better as I use it more.
It was 3 strikes until this update, now it’s 5, almost as if they knew there were going to be issues.
It was a never ending pay attention warning with red arms until it struck me out. It reminded me of that “pull over! I can’t pull over anymore, I’m already pulled over” scene from Super Troopers.Hey @Ramphex , could you expound a bit on your red arms of death? Are you getting them via the increasingly aggressive "apply slight turning force to the wheel" nag that will eventually end up in red arms of death if you don't torque the wheel, or are they the instant "Take over immediately" red arms of death that appear suddenly when FSD freaks out?
Edit: Forgot to add the possibility of the "Please Pay Attention" cabin camera driver monitoring alert. Let's put that as a possibility in the mix here.
If the arms of death are being caused by the car not recognizing steering wheel nag inputs to the wheel, then I think @drtimhill is right on the money.
If only there existed an official Tesla FSD Beta Testers forum that had people from Tesla's FSD team participating in it....
I’m 100% convinced it’s a code issue with the cabin camera. Up until this update I had the cabin camera “share analytics” disabled and NEVER had any issues. With this update, it forces cabin camera “analytics” on with no way to disable it without turning off FSD.
I did some limited testing yesterday on normal work route and the new visualizations are cool but I had to do the same interventions/disengagements I was doing with 10.11.2 so no real difference I can tell. I did not experience any red hands of death. Speed bump visualizations are still not back and it fails to recognize and slow at about the same percentage as before.
It wasn’t forced to be on until this update. I’ve had that spy garbage turned off the entire time until now. Let’s be real, if I still have to play the wheel torque game then I’m not playing the camera game. Tesla needs to pick one or the other, else it’s easier to just drive manually.
The FSD/AP wheel/yoke/camera nags have become more annoying than having a driving instructor in the front seat and your wife and mother in the back seat going on a road trip.
VanFriscia
Member
Installed the update yesterday and took it for a spin this morning (10 minutes of breezy rural driving). Agreed that it's more confident and assertive - right turns from 2-way stops still took too long and stuck out too far into the road to "peek" before committing, but it was quicker for sure. Still some minor phantom braking events, but happily that seems to be getting better with each release. The only hard fail was on a particularly curvy stretch of road - 10.12 still sucks at this. It accelerates too quickly into blind corners, then brakes hard and goes way too slow while still somehow managing to cross the double yellow lines. Like, it really sucks at this to the point of being dangerous, and has for the last couple versions. I don't know how many beta testers regularly drive through roads like this, but they're all over the place in my neck of the woods.
Otherwise, though, this was a good first drive. Looking forward to testing it out some more!
Otherwise, though, this was a good first drive. Looking forward to testing it out some more!
Yeah, I was really hoping by now that they'd be using the camera exclusively for this. Based on several reports here, though, it sounds like they're still working out some kinks with that. The sooner, the better! FWIW, I didn't get any strikes or chimes of doom this morning but it was only a 10 minutes drive.
SilverString
Member
10.12.2 often seems anxious and nervous in human terms, but much more confident in other situations. I am noticing better attention to preemptive turn lane positioning, but this has also caused some navigation mis-steps. A lot of mild phantom braking, but flashing yellow lights are now handled well in my case. Potential for this update seems very good, and I remember 11.2 as being so horrible at first I did not want to drive it, then it smoothed out a lot. I assume this will be the case with 12.2 as well. Incremental progress for sure with a few kinks, but to me it looks like a positive step forward in overall functionality.
Looks like all the beta 11.2 cars are getting updated so hopefully some new users will be added soon.
Looks like all the beta 11.2 cars are getting updated so hopefully some new users will be added soon.
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
I've only had time for a few drives with 12.2 and about half of them were in the rain with the "FSD degraded" message. I do agree that this version is more confident and the right angle turns are smoother.
The "stop and creep" logic for making turns is still initiated too far from the intersection, but that seems to be related to inconsistent placing of stop signs. Again, without additional cameras being added to the mix, I don't see how this behavior can be avoided.
The somewhat acute left hand turn, off of the main highway to the residential street network where I live in NY is now a safety hazard. The angle is about 70°. The car has to slow from 55 mph to make the turn and the 30 mph unlined residential road has an uphill slope. The car slows but then the wheel jerks back and forth and the car just gives up and stops with no turn executed. The car has been able to make this maneuver in that past, but it's never been smooth.
The "stop and creep" logic for making turns is still initiated too far from the intersection, but that seems to be related to inconsistent placing of stop signs. Again, without additional cameras being added to the mix, I don't see how this behavior can be avoided.
The somewhat acute left hand turn, off of the main highway to the residential street network where I live in NY is now a safety hazard. The angle is about 70°. The car has to slow from 55 mph to make the turn and the 30 mph unlined residential road has an uphill slope. The car slows but then the wheel jerks back and forth and the car just gives up and stops with no turn executed. The car has been able to make this maneuver in that past, but it's never been smooth.
Re: "stop and creep", there are intersections where the cameras have a problem, but that is a minority of intersections.
What humans do is slow to creep speed at the stop sign but keep going to an appropriate stopping point. And then go when all is clear. When there is a well-placed stop line in addition to the sign, the car does nicely. It just needs to figure out where the line should be
What humans do is slow to creep speed at the stop sign but keep going to an appropriate stopping point. And then go when all is clear. When there is a well-placed stop line in addition to the sign, the car does nicely. It just needs to figure out where the line should be
Reddy Kilowatt
Active Member
I got to make a couple runs with 12.2 yesterday and this morning running my normal route to work. Accident this morning blocked most of the route and I had to detour.
For the most part I feel it is getting smoother with stops, gaining confidence and getting more aggressive pulling away from stops. Ran through circle without stopping. No issues with stop signs others are reporting, neighbors won't be pissed at me anymore. No Red hand issues.
I think it is better than 11.2 overall so far.
It did miss the exit ramp last night for some reason. it is cresting a hill and hard to see entrance to ramp which it has always had issue with. Also not changing lanes when it should. I had to hit turn signal. Also changed lanes once without even giving me the blue warning sign. I have noticed the car is cutting corners sharper and getting my wheels closer to the curb.
I have one stop sign at shopping center it does that stop short and creep up to. I tried that and it did not clear it. fault still exists. Other minor stuff went away, and that is why i like it better that 11.2 so far. I think I got to work 2 minutes sooner given its decisiveness and being more aggressive in the neighborhood.
For the most part I feel it is getting smoother with stops, gaining confidence and getting more aggressive pulling away from stops. Ran through circle without stopping. No issues with stop signs others are reporting, neighbors won't be pissed at me anymore. No Red hand issues.
I think it is better than 11.2 overall so far.
It did miss the exit ramp last night for some reason. it is cresting a hill and hard to see entrance to ramp which it has always had issue with. Also not changing lanes when it should. I had to hit turn signal. Also changed lanes once without even giving me the blue warning sign. I have noticed the car is cutting corners sharper and getting my wheels closer to the curb.
I have one stop sign at shopping center it does that stop short and creep up to. I tried that and it did not clear it. fault still exists. Other minor stuff went away, and that is why i like it better that 11.2 so far. I think I got to work 2 minutes sooner given its decisiveness and being more aggressive in the neighborhood.
I think you pointed out one potential problem with a vision only system. When you turn left to the uphill slope, the vision system cannot decide the actual angle of the turn. It would look like the turn angle is more than 70°. Depending on the slope angle, the distance measurement would be wrong too.
On 2022.12.3.20 now and I'm experencing something really bad.
On single lane roads when there is a turnout section to go around cars making left hand turns. FSD is indicating to turn right into this lane and starts turning right.. it then it freaks out and realizes it's a solid line and corrects back to the left, but over corrects and crosses the center line..
On single lane roads when there is a turnout section to go around cars making left hand turns. FSD is indicating to turn right into this lane and starts turning right.. it then it freaks out and realizes it's a solid line and corrects back to the left, but over corrects and crosses the center line..
Made my morning drivetime drive to work this morning with 10.12.2. Definitely not better - at best, different. It does seem to be more confident in some situations, specifically right turns on red were smoother and more confident feeling. Turn lane selection is, again, at best different and seems (from this one drive) worse. Instead of randomly pulling into turn lanes, now it seems to ignore turn lanes that it previously used correctly. In one instance it stayed in the center of three lanes at a light with its left blinker on intending to turn left despite the errant lane selection. It had never done such at that intersection before.
But then, at the end of the drive turning left at a green circle across two lanes of oncoming traffic with good visibility, it crossed over the stop line (which it hasn't done before and I never do) but was slowing to seemingly wait its turn, then made a violent jerk left and accelerated right into two oncoming cars in an apparent bid to kill me. Thank God I was paying attention, even though the car has never had a problem at this intersection before and I could have very likely, based on my confidence with this intersection from all the previous drives, been thinking of something else right then, like what I was going to have for lunch.
Which brings me to my point: How will I ever trust it? If every iteration comes with a new neural net with new decision making, where, based on the cleanliness of lane markings, the angle of sun and shadows falling across the intersection, and the color of the oncoming cars, where some new combination of conditions can result in errant decision making that may lead to a near fatal accident, how would one ever develop the confidence in the system to actually let it drive for you if it ever did become L3 autonomous? Perhaps the folks that will get the actual benefit from FSD and trust it to do its job as an L3 autonomous driving feature will be the ones that didn't participate in the beta testing and don't realize that somewhere in the millions of computations and weights in the NN there will always exist some chain of calculations that would lead to a really bad outcome, and you can only hope that your car never encounters them.
But then, at the end of the drive turning left at a green circle across two lanes of oncoming traffic with good visibility, it crossed over the stop line (which it hasn't done before and I never do) but was slowing to seemingly wait its turn, then made a violent jerk left and accelerated right into two oncoming cars in an apparent bid to kill me. Thank God I was paying attention, even though the car has never had a problem at this intersection before and I could have very likely, based on my confidence with this intersection from all the previous drives, been thinking of something else right then, like what I was going to have for lunch.
Which brings me to my point: How will I ever trust it? If every iteration comes with a new neural net with new decision making, where, based on the cleanliness of lane markings, the angle of sun and shadows falling across the intersection, and the color of the oncoming cars, where some new combination of conditions can result in errant decision making that may lead to a near fatal accident, how would one ever develop the confidence in the system to actually let it drive for you if it ever did become L3 autonomous? Perhaps the folks that will get the actual benefit from FSD and trust it to do its job as an L3 autonomous driving feature will be the ones that didn't participate in the beta testing and don't realize that somewhere in the millions of computations and weights in the NN there will always exist some chain of calculations that would lead to a really bad outcome, and you can only hope that your car never encounters them.
This is definitely the worst version of FSD I've used in my area.
Hard swerving into left lanes just to swerve back for no reason, slamming on the brakes in areas where it would more gently phantom brake. (Of course I am also reporting feedback every time I disengage)
I'm going to recalibrate the cameras to see if that makes a difference, but I think I might stick this one out. At least I have 85 MPH vision AP for my road trip.
Hard swerving into left lanes just to swerve back for no reason, slamming on the brakes in areas where it would more gently phantom brake. (Of course I am also reporting feedback every time I disengage)
I'm going to recalibrate the cameras to see if that makes a difference, but I think I might stick this one out. At least I have 85 MPH vision AP for my road trip.
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