FSD Beta 10.12

[nvx1977]

I take this back. A bit more driving today, and I noted that it behaves apparently exactly the same for traffic lights. Just less of an issue typically, since it’s reasonable to expect to wait a bit at traffic lights, so minimizing the run-up time to the light is not as important as it is for a stop sign. But definitely an issue when coming up to red lights where you will be turning right, etc.

I few times, I have pretended that at a stop sign at a T intersection that I was coming to a red light. It's definitely not the same feel as an actual red light behavior. It slows almost to a stop about 30ft away, then creeps slowly until it reaches the stop sign.

At an actual red light, the behavior is a much smoother deceleration to a stop. There are times where I think it's braking way too late. I NEVER feel like it's going to brake too late for a stop sign. I'm usually bracing for an early stop and creep. Just today, the car felt like it braked late for a red light, and feet from the stop line, it went past regen to bring the car to a stop. Again, never seen that at a stop sign.

 

[nvx1977]

Is the "left repeater" the same as the "B-Pillar"? The problem comes when the obstruction is so bad FSD needs to creep the car into the intersecting road so far it's impeding on coming traffic. I have several T-intersections where this occurs and in that situation you're basically screwed. The human driver leans way forward gaining 2+ feet which is significant. FSD cannot safely do the same. Turning further to the right helps but doesn't solve the inherent problem.

The repeater refers to the turn signals on the sides of the car, toward the front. They "repeat" the turn signals in the traditional head/tail light positions.

The repeater cameras are housed below the blinker and are angled more backwards. They check blind spots, but they can also help with cross traffic if the car is angled enough toward the turn.

Ideally there should be overlap between b-pillar camera (which are angled forward) and the repeater camera. and according to Tesla's infographic, there is:

but b-pillar camera range (Forward Looking Side Camera) is only 80m. repeaters (Rearward Looking Side Cameras) are 100m.

 

[mjlef1]

Is the "left repeater" the same as the "B-Pillar"? The problem comes when the obstruction is so bad FSD needs to creep the car into the intersecting road so far it's impeding on coming traffic. I have several T-intersections where this occurs and in that situation you're basically screwed. The human driver leans way forward gaining 2+ feet which is significant. FSD cannot safely do the same. Turning further to the right helps but doesn't solve the inherent proble>

Has Tesla ever mentioned adding cameras to the windshiled frame on the driver's side, or even near the driver's side front turn signal looking out the side of the car? I think the car needs some way to get the same or better view than a dirver leaning forward. Maybe they can make this an add on if need be?

 

[jabloomf1230]

It only read something like "Location data unavailable." without any prompting for permission like it normally does. It kept crashing for me on the prior version, but at least it worked some of the time. I'll keep trying...

Try doing the steering wheel two button /pedal reset and see if that helps. You can also now clear the browser cache. I haven't tried that because I assume that it clears all your favorites.

 

[Oil Freedom]

Has Tesla ever mentioned adding cameras to the windshiled frame on the driver's side, or even near the driver's side front turn signal looking out the side of the car? I think the car needs some way to get the same or better view than a dirver leaning forward. Maybe they can make this an add on if need be?

Not that I've heard of since they claim they have 360 degree coverage around the vehicle.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I few times, I have pretended that at a stop sign at a T intersection that I was coming to a red light. It's definitely not the same feel as an actual red light behavior. It slows almost to a stop about 30ft away, then creeps slowly until it reaches the stop sign.

At an actual red light, the behavior is a much smoother deceleration to a stop. There are times where I think it's braking way too late. I NEVER feel like it's going to brake too late for a stop sign. I'm usually bracing for an early stop and creep. Just today, the car felt like it braked late for a red light, and feet from the stop line, it went past regen to bring the car to a stop. Again, never seen that at a stop sign.

Interesting. As I said, just basing mine on a few observations today. As we know, it may not be consistent and hard to draw conclusions from a small sample. I can say that there are definitely problems with some red light scenarios. Just very subtle hitch-type slowdowns in advance of the light (amongst other issues previously described).

 

[Ben W]

A few FSD Beta 10.12 fails from today, in my 2017 M3.

In the first clip, the car needs to get into a right-turn lane but fails to do so, and gets stuck for a very long time in the center lane. Even when the light turns green and there are no obstacles, the car fails to get into the right-turn lane, so I have to override it. FSD Beta has had a problem with this turn since at least 10.4.

In the second clip, FSD Beta properly gets into the right-turn lane, but then inexplicably tries to merge out of it just before the turn, so I had to override. This is PCH North at Coastline Drive.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Has Tesla ever mentioned adding cameras to the windshiled frame on the driver's side, or even near the driver's side front turn signal looking out the side of the car? I think the car needs some way to get the same or better view than a dirver leaning forward. Maybe they can make this an add on if need be?

This has been a much-discussed issue within the user community. I don’t think Tesla has ever publicly acknowledged that there is any deficiency in the present camera coverage. "Overlapping 360 degree surround" coverage sounds good on the surface, but is not at all the same as optimal-viewpoint placement in the presence of fixed-infrastructure or other-vehicle obstructions.

Some of us feel strongly that Tesla needs cameras at least on the front corners; I've proposed that a new combined-instrument design for the headlight modules could incorporate such cameras, and could even open the consideration of a retrofittable HW4 or HW3+ configuration to include them. It's possible to do local video pre-processing and merging to deal with the currently limited number of camera input ports on the FSD computer.

That's not the same as saying that I think Tesla agrees or will do any such thing, only that it's feasible.

Similar arguments can be made for rear corner cameras, improved near-vision and curb-view/parking cameras etc. But I think the most important benefits would be at the front corners, along with higher resolution cameras in general.

(Camera cleaning, anti-fouling coatings and so on are also design considerations for all of the cameras not already covered by the windshield cleaning hardware.)

Note that more and/or higher-resolution cameras doesn't really mean that the video bitrate needs to be far higher throughout the video processing stack, which is a typical objection whenever this comes up. I believe it should be handled more as an adaptive capability, in which a number of freely-assignable regions can bring the high resolution imaging on demand. Something like the high-resolution but very limited region of our human vision which is the central fovea - but in the machine vision case there could be a superhuman number of these virtual-fovea regions, reassignable on demand, while the general surround-view is kept to a modest and sufficient resolution-> bitrate.

Discussion of non-vision sensors like lidar, radar, infrared etc. is a whole other dimension; here I'm just commenting on achieving human-equivalent and superhuman capabilities in the standard visual spectrum.

I think this is a very promising area for Improvement, but again I'm not very optimistic that the Tesla engineering team sees it that way even for new hardware, much less any significant retrofit. It will be very interesting to find out what the future HW4 platform looks like.

Finally, I think that most of the present FSD beta performance limitations are due to recognition, labeling and decision processing. Camera improvements would indeed help the creeping and other issues with high-speed traffic recognition, but would certainly not "solve" FSD in general.

 

[Ben W]

Has Tesla ever mentioned adding cameras to the windshiled frame on the driver's side, or even near the driver's side front turn signal looking out the side of the car? I think the car needs some way to get the same or better view than a dirver leaning forward. Maybe they can make this an add on if need be?

Perhaps HW4 might add side-facing cameras in the front headlight assembly? That would really give the best possible coverage, though it might have glare problems with the headlights on...

 

[jeremymc7]

I don’t recall which truck it was but what I saw the other day was the truck had something like FIFTEEN cameras.

Certainly blows Tesla out of the water. That said I don’t know the mount locations and certainly at least some of those cameras are intended for assisting with towing, especially oversized like large boats, horse trailers, third wheels and the like.

 

[Supcom]

Is the "left repeater" the same as the "B-Pillar"? The problem comes when the obstruction is so bad FSD needs to creep the car into the intersecting road so far it's impeding on coming traffic. I have several T-intersections where this occurs and in that situation you're basically screwed. The human driver leans way forward gaining 2+ feet which is significant. FSD cannot safely do the same. Turning further to the right helps but doesn't solve the inherent problem.

No. The left repeater is the camera mounted on the fender. It's the camera that is "Left" in the dashcam and is the camera that appears when you use the turn signals (if enabled).

In my Right turn scenario, orienting the car properly allows the left repeater to see all three lanes of traffic. I have dashcam images that show it once I had manually positioned the car. And my car was not in the cross lane.

Tesla engineers obviously did their homework when placing the cameras. They just need to work on the creeping.

 

[EVNow]

Looks like about 400 new testers got added on Teslafi - from 2,400 to 2,800.

 

[drtimhill]

Yeah, not clear how good/consistent their distance estimation is. Still, it should be able to do a lot better than it is doing. Inconsistent distance estimation might lead to less smooth slowing but even that could probably be smoothed.



I take this back. A bit more driving today, and I noted that it behaves apparently exactly the same for traffic lights. Just less of an issue typically, since it’s reasonable to expect to wait a bit at traffic lights, so minimizing the run-up time to the light is not as important as it is for a stop sign. But definitely an issue when coming up to red lights where you will be turning right, etc.

And I guess I don’t understand the people saying it is more aggressive. It may be that on occasion it will mildly gun it in a turn, where it did not before, but certainly no alacrity on the starts from a light. Maybe people are just commenting on that subtle change. I feel in aggressive mode you should be doing 50mph in 5-6 seconds (don’t take exact numbers here literally - I would have to time it, this is an estimate of “reasonable”) from a light. Maybe at some point they’ll tune this. But right now it is frustratingly slow. Maybe a bit cautious on following traffic from a light, too. Overall perhaps not that bad but should start moving more quickly when traffic in front starts moving and then open up the space to a comfortable distance. Rather than creating a ton of space right away. Not sure I’ll ever figure out their algorithm since typically I am accelerator overriding - just tried not doing it a couple times today to observe.

I would not call it aggressive, my word is "confidence" in that its overall less hesitant before setting off, and certainly uses heavier (and later) braking when coming to a stop behind other cars. About the same as I would use in both cases (though perhaps a little heavier on the brakes).

 

[Matias]

Status quo (figured these would be fixed by now!):

• Still doesn't read the No Right Turn on Red signs so have to hit the brakes.

I think this should be very easy to fix. Wonder, why they have not done it. Does California have those?

 

[jeremymc7]

I think this should be very easy to fix. Wonder, why they have not done it. Does California have those?

California has plenty no turn on red.

Usually where the turn is blind or limited visibility and often fast cross traffic.

 

[auger]

Looks like about 400 new testers got added on Teslafi - from 2,400 to 2,800.

So I've heard TeslaFi is estimated to be a 1:11 ratio. If so, that would mean about 4,400 of the 40k supposedly to be added to the 60k existing. There's hope for me yet . . .

 

[JulienW]

California has plenty no turn on red.

Usually where the turn is blind or limited visibility and often fast cross traffic.

Bet every state has them. The main problems is signage is all over the map literally and figuratively. There is no standard placement location or standard wordage for them. Even we humans can have a hard time spotting them and they can even contain specific instructions that must be understood.

Even now non standard Speed Limit signs (like flashing, colored or small ones) are not read and some signs that "look like" speed limit signs are misread.

 

[ammulder]

OK, here’s a weird one. On my refresh X, I had the audio sized to take 1/3 of the screen, and in my last drive before the 10.12 update I had dragged it from left to right so audio was on the right 1/3 of the screen. After the update, the map was completely screwed up — it showed me 5 hours from my actual location, and calculated route from that bizarre spot, though the caption showed the city name I was actually in. I tried a two scroll wheel reboot, no joy.

What fixed the map — like, immediately — was dragging the audio back to the left 1/3 of the screen.

 

[cadreeeem]

IMO this is the achilles heal of FSD. The reliance on the B-pillar camera and the fact the forward cameras cannot see 90 degrees left/right is going to diminish FSD when accidents get reported once you have owners who rely on FSD without carefully watching every turn.

I agree. Having a blind spot in front of the car is a really bad and dangerous design. Having to creep into the intersection to see is a disaster waiting to happen. Doesn't that seem obvious?

 

[cadreeeem]

Is anyone else have trouble with the climate control on 10.12.2? I have to set the temp at about 65 to get any ac - it's 85 outside. I checked that the settings are on auto. Tried rebooting. No change I noticed this a few days after the update. Not sure if it's related.